The slow, painful death of UK armed forces

[Tamas]

I love this subject, you Americans get so defensive on what is crystal clear: the wars with Mexico, and later Spain were blatant imperialist conquests.

I can't defend much of the Mexican War, other than it was right in its righteousness, and the Spanish-American War was a response to international terrorism.

didn't you have your newspapers and such going all jingo on spain before that incident?

[CountDeMoney]

I love this subject, you Americans get so defensive on what is crystal clear: the wars with Mexico, and later Spain were blatant imperialist conquests.

I can't defend much of the Mexican War, other than it was right in its righteousness, and the Spanish-American War was a response to international terrorism.

didn't you have your newspapers and such going all jingo on spain before that incident?

I don't recall, I wasn't there.  Ask grumbler.

[Admiral Yi]

didn't you have your newspapers and such going all jingo on spain before that incident?

We had our newspapers going all jingo about the unpleasant Spanish suppression of a Cuban revolt. 

[CountDeMoney]

We had our newspapers going all jingo about the unpleasant Spanish suppression of a Cuban revolt.

A couple blocks south of Johns Hopkins Hospital, in a median on Broadway, there's a little statue dedicated to Jose Marti.  For years, it was left alone, and somebody only recently refurbished it. 
Actually, we have a couple of Marti statues in town.

[Ed Anger]

We had our newspapers going all jingo about the unpleasant Spanish suppression of a Cuban revolt.

A couple blocks south of Johns Hopkins Hospital, in a median on Broadway, there's a little statue dedicated to Jose Marti.  For years, it was left alone, and somebody only recently refurbished it. 
Actually, we have a couple of Marti statues in town.

Great, Mart is going think those are about him now. His ego will explode over this place like a glitter bomb.

[CountDeMoney]

Great, Mart is going think those are about him now. His ego will explode over this place like a glitter bomb.

Meh, we've got a bad ass monument dedicated to Pulaski.  He'll have to be satisfied with that.


Fun fact:  We have the only other monument dedicated to William Wallace outside the UK.



FREEEE DUM

[Josquius]

America was just as imperialist as any other 19th century country. Not just its wars with Mexico and Spain, its take over of native American lands clearly counts as well.
Just because its empire, like Russia's, was largely landbased rather than overseas and they followed a model of direct integration rather than self-government doesn't make it any less colonial.

[CountDeMoney]

America was just as imperialist as any other 19th century country. Not just its wars with Mexico and Spain, its take over of native American lands clearly counts as well.

You're not going to make me cry like the end of Dances With Wolves, dammit.   

[Admiral Yi]

America was just as imperialist as any other 19th century country. Not just its wars with Mexico and Spain, its take over of native American lands clearly counts as well.
Just because its empire, like Russia's, was largely landbased rather than overseas and they followed a model of direct integration rather than self-government doesn't make it any less colonial.

Apart from the Dominions, which British colonies were self-governing? 

The US established self-government in The Phillipines something like 20 years after annexation.  Which European colonizer did the same?

The US made it illegal for Americans to purchase property in The Phillipines.  Which European colonizer did the same?

The US granted The Phillipines independence about 40 years after annexation.  Which European colonizer did the same?

Other than those things, I agree.  Exactly the same.

[CountDeMoney]

The US established self-government in The Phillipines something like 20 years after annexation.  Which European colonizer did the same?

The US made it illegal for Americans to purchase property in The Phillipines.  Which European colonizer did the same?

The US granted The Phillipines independence about 40 years after annexation.  Which European colonizer did the same?

Other than those things, I agree.  Exactly the same.

The literacy rate of the Phillipines also skyrocketed under the first 20 years of US annexation in comparison to European holdings.  I posted the exact statistics on EUOT once, gotta find them.

[Sheilbh]

Okay but I think you protest too much.  I mean the Mexican-American and Spanish-American wars were attacked at the time by many Americans as imperialist.

Also you did get the Philippines in 1898.  So those years sound impressive, but the truth is they became self-governing in the 1930s and got independence in the 1940s.  That just puts them in line with many other colonially ruled states.  European countries generally got them earlier.  I think that reflects more the changed circumstances and ideologies of the period than American benevolence.  For example the easy answer to this 'the US granted The Phillipines independence about 40 years after annexation.  Which European colonizer did the same?' is Italy and Libya.  By just measuring the years the British presence in Iraq was positively benign.

Also as Tyr's point makes clear the Russian model shows you don't need overseas territory to be colonising.

[The Larch]

the Spanish-American War was a response to international terrorism.

Mr. Hearst, I thought you were long dead!

[Admiral Yi]

Okay but I think you protest too much.  I mean the Mexican-American and Spanish-American wars were attacked at the time by many Americans as imperialist.

Also you did get the Philippines in 1898.  So those years sound impressive, but the truth is they became self-governing in the 1930s and got independence in the 1940s.  That just puts them in line with many other colonially ruled states.  European countries generally got them earlier.  I think that reflects more the changed circumstances and ideologies of the period than American benevolence.  For example the easy answer to this 'the US granted The Phillipines independence about 40 years after annexation.  Which European colonizer did the same?' is Italy and Libya.  By just measuring the years the British presence in Iraq was positively benign.

Also as Tyr's point makes clear the Russian model shows you don't need overseas territory to be colonising.

France and Britain granted independence when faced with an exhausting series of colonial wars right after a devestating, bankrupting World War.  That's a different set of changed circumstances and ideologies than what prompted the US to grant independence.  The US had already set the timetable for eventual independence before entering WWII.

[CountDeMoney]

the Spanish-American War was a response to international terrorism.

Mr. Hearst, I thought you were long dead!

We smoked those evildoers out of their holes.

[The Larch]

Also you did get the Philippines in 1898.

And Puerto Rico and Guam.