How can Afghanistan and Iraq maintain their own security?

[Caliga]

If so, how about YOU look it up and share it with us. It isn't my claim, so I don't really care. You are the first person I have ever seen argue that the taliban was completely gone, and then somehow magically re-appeared out of thin air.

They magically reappeared because Osama drew the Event card which gives you a free on-map reinforcement.  Bypassed the eliminated/replaceable box even, baby.

[Ed Anger]

If so, how about YOU look it up and share it with us. It isn't my claim, so I don't really care. You are the first person I have ever seen argue that the taliban was completely gone, and then somehow magically re-appeared out of thin air.

They magically reappeared because Osama drew the Event card which gives you a free on-map reinforcement.  Bypassed the eliminated/replaceable box even, baby.

That is the problem with CDG's. Too much fucking weird shit happens. USE A PRODUCTION SPIRAL!

[Crazy_Ivan80]

40 years ago Afghanistan was not nearly as poor as it is today. 

indeed, was a rather well-traveled (given its location and all that) tourist-destination. I think it was Kabul that was known for it's gardens, while the country itself was known for its breathtaking landscape. All lost now of course.

[Queequeg]

Why would I look it up? Is there some article somewhere that will state that in 2002 there was no Taliban anywhere?

If so, how about YOU look it up and share it with us. It isn't my claim, so I don't really care. You are the first person I have ever seen argue that the taliban was completely gone, and then somehow magically re-appeared out of thin air.

This is pretty basic, Berkut.  Figured you knew it. 
The most basic summary from the NYT

But the Taliban continued to exist, living as a guerrilla warfare operation based in the mountainous and largely lawless tribal area on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. As the American military focus was diverted to the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the Taliban regrouped and began to extend its influence in the southern part of Afghanistan.

Now both Eastern Afghanistan and Western Pakistan are Pashtun areas, so naturally the totally Pashtun Taliban found home with their cousins (literally) in Pakistan.  They did something similar during the Soviet invasion.  Oldest trick in the book.

indeed, was a rather well-traveled (given its location and all that) tourist-destination. I think it was Kabul that was known for it's gardens, while the country itself was known for its breathtaking landscape. All lost now of course.

Yup.  I often use ancient examples because I think that the previous existence of functional, wealthy innovative societies in a certain area means that it is hypothetically possible for one to arise again.  This isn't Madagascar. 

Lost?  This is what Northern France used to look like:

[Queequeg]

My point is simply that Afghanistan cannot afford the amount of military it needs to maintain its own security. Not now, and not in the near future, and not EVER unless the need side of the equation is reduced a LOT.

What we coulda shoulda done in 2002 has nothing really to do with that. It is trivial to always point back at some time in the past and say "golly, if only we had done everything perfectly right then and with perfect results, why we wouldn't have this mess today!" Whatever.

My disagreement with you here is largely inconsequential I think; only wanted to point out that Afghanistan isn't totally incapable of being raised out of its current Sub-Saharan state, and that the Taliban are defeatable. 

I largely agree on military spending today; they need our help, will for some time, probably longer than Iraq.

[Queequeg]

And I've been arguing with him like he is an actual real person with actual real arguments?

For all my eccentricities, I know something about the area.  All you have is a psychotic addiction to argument, rage and arguments from ignorance.

[Berkut]

And I've been arguing with him like he is an actual real person with actual real arguments?

For all my eccentricities, I know something about the area.  All you have is a psychotic addiction to argument, rage and arguments from ignorance.

Ah yes, like your claim that there "was no Taliban" in 2002?

[Queequeg]

And I've been arguing with him like he is an actual real person with actual real arguments?

For all my eccentricities, I know something about the area.  All you have is a psychotic addiction to argument, rage and arguments from ignorance.

Ah yes, like your claim that there "was no Taliban" in 2002?

In AFGHANISTAN?  There might have been the odd Taliban Sympathizer, and maybe a few left near the Pakistan Border, but they were wildly unpopular and we did a good job of kicking them out.  The problem was that we kicked them into Pakistan. 

[Berkut]

And I've been arguing with him like he is an actual real person with actual real arguments?

For all my eccentricities, I know something about the area.  All you have is a psychotic addiction to argument, rage and arguments from ignorance.

Ah yes, like your claim that there "was no Taliban" in 2002?

In AFGHANISTAN?  There might have been the odd Taliban Sympathizer, and maybe a few left near the Pakistan Border, but they were wildly unpopular and we did a good job of kicking them out.  The problem was that we kicked them into Pakistan. 

Ahh yes, you "knowing something about the area" know that every single one was kicked into Pakistan. I guess you were there, right?

Of course, the border areas are unsecured, so whether they are in Pakistan proper or Afghanistan proper is impossible to say - the point is that your claim that "there was no Taliban" in 2002 is bullshit. Of course there was - they were just laying low and regrouping. And no, there probably was not really anything we could have done then to stop them from coming back, no matter how many pipe dream roads we built, or whether we went into Iraq or not.

Hell, the very article you cite states that they were driven into the border regions, which in fact are in Afghanistan in part.

Yeah, you sure are an experten on the region. "No taliban at all" indeed.

[Queequeg]

You just restated everything I said in the post you quoted as a refutation of me. 

You just lost all right to complain about arguing with me.

[Valmy]

You just restated everything I said in the post you quoted as a refutation of me. 

You just lost all right to complain about arguing with me.

Yes but you DID post once there was no Taliban in 2002.  For that you shall suffer.

[Queequeg]

You just restated everything I said in the post you quoted as a refutation of me. 

You just lost all right to complain about arguing with me.

Yes but you DID post once there was no Taliban in 2002.  For that you shall suffer.

One moment of hyperbole doesn't excuse that kind of sloppiness.

Me: Its raining.
Berut: No, its not.
Me: Well, its drizzling.  There's water coming down from the sky.
Berkut: I GOT YOU YOU MOTHERFUCKER!  ITS DRIZZLING!  DRIZZLING ISN'T RAINING!  YOU FUCKING RETARD!

[KRonn]

Obviously Afghanistan is going to need money, training, and lots of economic help for some years, decades maybe.  Just as other nations have needed in similar circumstances. I kind of think it's worth the investment to give the Afghans a good chance at a better life, and to keep the nation out of the mess it's been in, with the kinds of extremists who would likely come to power.

[The Brain]

I think Afghanistan could be fixed by a 500 year campaign of atomic purging.

[Zanza]