The 2012 London Olympics Sports Thread

[crazy canuck]

The thing that common sense tells us about rules like the 6-second goalie rule is not that they should always be enforced or never enforced.

It is that they definitely need to be enforced when it matters, and let slide when it does not.

When one team is gaining a clear advantage by exploiting the rule not being enforced, then it does in fact need to be enforced.

That is what separates the good officials from the mediocre ones - understanding the context of the game, the intent of the rule, and how to apply it.

The 3-second violation in basketball is a good analogy. If someone is camping in the lane, and it desn't matter because they aren't getting the ball anyway, I am probably just going to tell them to move.

If you are camping in the lane, they pass you the ball, you make a move or two, use up your three seconds, force the defense to collapse on you, then after 4-5 seconds pass the ball out to an open teammate for an easy three - you better believe it is getting called. Or it better be.

I don't know soccer well enough to judge if this was that kind of case, but it sounds like the intent of the rule is to keep players from doing exactly what the goalie was doing - trying to run out the clock to protect a lead.

the best evidence that your are wrong that the ref was not applying the intent of the rule is that for the longest time nobody could figure out what had been called because it was completely out of context.  In your example of somebody camping in the lane - when that it called everyone knows it was coming.

[Josephus]

I thought we moved on from this.

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

[garbon]

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

5 mph is a different story.

[Berkut]

The thing that common sense tells us about rules like the 6-second goalie rule is not that they should always be enforced or never enforced.

It is that they definitely need to be enforced when it matters, and let slide when it does not.

When one team is gaining a clear advantage by exploiting the rule not being enforced, then it does in fact need to be enforced.

That is what separates the good officials from the mediocre ones - understanding the context of the game, the intent of the rule, and how to apply it.

The 3-second violation in basketball is a good analogy. If someone is camping in the lane, and it desn't matter because they aren't getting the ball anyway, I am probably just going to tell them to move.

If you are camping in the lane, they pass you the ball, you make a move or two, use up your three seconds, force the defense to collapse on you, then after 4-5 seconds pass the ball out to an open teammate for an easy three - you better believe it is getting called. Or it better be.

I don't know soccer well enough to judge if this was that kind of case, but it sounds like the intent of the rule is to keep players from doing exactly what the goalie was doing - trying to run out the clock to protect a lead.

the best evidence that your are wrong that the ref was not applying the intent of the rule is that for the longest time nobody could figure out what had been called because it was completely out of context.  In your example of somebody camping in the lane - when that it called everyone knows it was coming.

So the best evidence that a rule is being properly applied is if the people watching the game understand what is going on?

That is an interesting perspective on officiating.

[Berkut]

I thought we moved on from this.

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

It is NEVER called?

NEVER EVER?

Really?

So why is it a rule then? Why don't they just get rid of it, if it serves no purpose whatsoever?

And why don't goalies with a lead just stand there with the ball until time runs out?

[derspiess]

That women's soccer game is the gift that keeps on giving

[Berkut]

That women's soccer game is the gift that keeps on giving

As an official, I find stuff like this endlessly interesting to talk about.

I might even get intrigued enough to call my friend who is a soccer official, and get his take on it.

There are plenty of rules in sports that are almost never called - they exist to keep corner cases from being exploited. But at some point, you do end up having to make a call, because if you don't smart players figure out that they are "NEVER called" and start doing things they ought not to do under the assumption that you aren't going to call it.

From the reports I've heard, the goalie held the ball not for just a little longer than the mandated 6 seconds, but a LOT longer. Like ten or twelve. To me, that is just saying "Hey, I am going to keep on holding this until you let me know I cannot by blowing your whistle".

Another good example of a rule like this is the alignment of offensive linemen in football. By rule, "on the line of scrimmage" is defined pretty strictly. In a practical sense though, we aren't really going to make an issue out of whether or not some tackle is 6 inches too far back - it really does not matter, and nobody wants to see flags for bullshit like that.

But on the other hand...it can matter. If all the lineman start creeping back, at some point they are getting an advantage on pass blocking, and at some point, you have to get them right. Sometimes that can happen by a quick "Hey guys, get your ass up on the line!". But sometimes you just have to ding them before they are going to listen. Hell, to some extent that is smart play on their part - if the official is not going to enforce the rule, why wouldn't you try to get as much advantage as possible?

I do not know soccer well, but I am guessing as someone who does know officiating, this is one of those rules that are mostly ignored, as long as the infraction doesn't really matter because there is no real advantage to be gained. But eventually the smart players figure that out, and then the rarely seen rule comes into play, and all the spectators who are fans of the team who gets dinged rise up and wail and gnash their teeth at the injustice of their team being called for something that is "NEVER called". If this had been reversed, the exact same people bithing about this being called would be praising the official for not letting the stinking Americans get away with such blatant cheating. Such is the nature of the fan.

Yeah, it is *almost* never called because it is almost never abused to an extent that it needs to be called.

[DGuller]

I thought we moved on from this.

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

It is NEVER called?

NEVER EVER?

Really?

So why is it a rule then? Why don't they just get rid of it, if it serves no purpose whatsoever?

And why don't goalies with a lead just stand there with the ball until time runs out?

It may never be called precisely because goalies don't conspicuously push it.  That rule may be there just to have some rule in the book against such a dead lock, but by just being there its enforcement may be rendered so unnecessary that the letter of it is never tested.

[Berkut]

I thought we moved on from this.

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

It is NEVER called?

NEVER EVER?

Really?

So why is it a rule then? Why don't they just get rid of it, if it serves no purpose whatsoever?

And why don't goalies with a lead just stand there with the ball until time runs out?

It may never be called precisely because goalies don't conspicuously push it.  That rule may be there just to have some rule in the book against such a dead lock, but by just being there its enforcement may be rendered so unnecessary that the letter of it is never tested.

Exactly.

So it is in fact called, just not that often because it is not often that it is exploited to gain an unfair advantage.

But the mark of a *good* official is understanding when you do need to make a call like that - when you have to recognize that this almost never called rule exists for a reason, and it has to be called.

It was kind of the US player to help him out like that.

The argument that Canadians should be trying to make (assuming they must make an argument to excuse their team losing) is not that this is NEVER EVER called, it should be that this was NOT the exception that proves the need for the rule - that the goalie did not hold it for any longer than is typical under circumstances where there would not be an advantage for the Canadian team. If she held it for 12 seconds, and the rule says 6, do all goalies routinely hold it for 12, even when they are down? Did the US goalie hold it for 12? Is holding the ball that long tolerated across the board?

[DGuller]

I thought we moved on from this.

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

It is NEVER called?

NEVER EVER?

Really?

So why is it a rule then? Why don't they just get rid of it, if it serves no purpose whatsoever?

And why don't goalies with a lead just stand there with the ball until time runs out?

It may never be called precisely because goalies don't conspicuously push it.  That rule may be there just to have some rule in the book against such a dead lock, but by just being there its enforcement may be rendered so unnecessary that the letter of it is never tested.

Exactly.

So it is in fact called, just not that often because it is not often that it is exploited to gain an unfair advantage.

But the mark of a *good* official is understanding when you do need to make a call like that - when you have to recognize that this almost never called rule exists for a reason, and it has to be called.

It was kind of the US player to help him out like that.

The argument that Canadians should be trying to make (assuming they must make an argument to excuse their team losing) is not that this is NEVER EVER called, it should be that this was NOT the exception that proves the need for the rule - that the goalie did not hold it for any longer than is typical under circumstances where there would not be an advantage for the Canadian team. If she held it for 12 seconds, and the rule says 6, do all goalies routinely hold it for 12, even when they are down? Did the US goalie hold it for 12? Is holding the ball that long tolerated across the board?

I think that argument is so obvious that it's implied.  Obviously if that rule has never, ever been called in the history of soccer, and the first time it was called was after the goalie held the ball for 17 minutes, no one would be complaining.

[Berkut]

In this case, the goal keeper for Canada had apparently been egregiously delaying the game over and over and over again  several accounts having her holding the ball for as long as 17 seconds, and she was warned about it, and decided (I am guessing) that this is "NEVER called" and certainly would not be called in such a big game, so why not just keep holding onto the ball for as long as possible?

[sbr]

The original outrage was that the keeper was allegedly never warned before the penalty was called, if she was warned then there is absolutely nothing wrong with the call.  I think the call was probably fine even without a warning, but I am both biased towards one team and ignorant about the sport.

[Liep]

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

I've never seen it called because I've never seen a goalie keep it for more than 7-8 seconds, because they all know what will happen if they try to push that. If she did indeed hold onto the ball for 17 seconds then the stupidity should be applied to her not the call.

[Admiral Yi]

I've never seen it called because I've never seen a goalie keep it for more than 7-8 seconds, because they all know what will happen if they try to push that. If she did indeed hold onto the ball for 17 seconds then the stupidity should be applied to her not the call.

Stuff like this is making me reevaluate my prior position.

[Josephus]

I thought we moved on from this.

But it was a dumb call. Anyone who watches the game week in and week out knows it is NEVER called. Anyone who says it was the right call doesn't watch the game enough.

Yes, it's against the rules. So is driving five kilometres over the speed limit on the freeways. You'll never get pulled over for that. Not in civilized places anyways.

It is NEVER called?

NEVER EVER?

Really?

So why is it a rule then? Why don't they just get rid of it, if it serves no purpose whatsoever?

And why don't goalies with a lead just stand there with the ball until time runs out?

Never ever.

Because in normal cases the ref points at them and tells them to get on with it.

And how did we suddenly get to 17 seconds. I've heard 10 at most.

Note, the "clock" starts not when the goalie gets possession, but when he/she can clear it out. If there's an opposing player within her reach, those seconds do not count.