Happy Trianon Treaty Day!

[Valmy]

And on the topic of Austria. For centuries, every time the Hungarian nobility steered up the Hungarian population for their selfish needs, the Habsburgs responded by fueling unrest among the slavs of the country.

For centuries?!  The Habsburgs got to where they got by being boring and being lucky not by rabble rousing.  They only resorted to that in the post-French Revolutionary days...at least IIRC.

[Tamas]

The whole situation sucked ass for all involved.  Especially as time went on.  I can understand a feeling of loss, what jerks my chain is the anger about it and blaming dirty foreigners for some sort of anti-Hungarian conspiracy or something.

Fair enough, but then handle that in it's place. The people doing that are our version of the Tea Party. So do not judge Hungarians by those people more than I should judge you and the rest of the Americans by Sarah Palin and her fans.

[Neil]

I don't accept your premise that national self-determination is a good thing.  I prefer large, multiethnic empires where the more advanced shepherd and assimilate the lesser peoples.  The only problem with Austria was that the empire was destroyed before it's work was done.

[Zanza]

I think the only people that still whine here about territorial losses do so because they hope that the government will eventually give them money as compensation for their losses. Of course the government just has to wait another decade or so and they'll all be dead.

[Valmy]

I don't accept your premise that national self-determination is a good thing.  I prefer large, multiethnic empires where the more advanced shepherd and assimilate the lesser peoples.  The only problem with Austria was that the empire was destroyed before it's work was done.

Austria was hijacked by the Germans and Hungarians who, the Hungarians more than the Germans granted, tried to form big nation states out of the thing.

[garbon]

Besides, it's not all that different from the way you people get all worked up about the Confederates.

Care to elaborate?

[Valmy]

Sadly, "population exchange" has proven to be a great way to ensure stable borders.  The Greek-Turkish population exhange from around the same time is another example.

If that ist he cure though, it is hard to imagine that the disease is worse than the cure. Hopefully the western democracy mindset of multiculturalism will wash over Eastern Europe and in 30-40 years and this will all seem silly.

Yes and why Nation States are ultimately not a good idea.  I like my states based on shared political principals and not nationality or ethnicity.  Because you are never going to have a pure state without some pretty horrible shenanigans.  Also times change and populations shift.  A more flexible basis for the country can guide it peacefully through those sorts of tansitions.

[Cecil]

You fucked over Austria and in so doing fucked over yourselves. I find it hard to scrounge up any sympathy.

While I do agree to a degree, a degree that the Hungarian aristocracy has a lot to answer for in the imbecile ways they were leading the country, I would caution you from painting poor Austria as a victim.

I mean, we are talking about OMG NATIONAL SELF-DETERMINATION FTW!!!!
Well we wanted that. We fought for that. We won it. In 1849. Then the Russians came, steamrolled us, and gave us back to the Austrians, who massacred our elite who led the revolution (a LOT of them were not ethnic Magyars, but fought and died for the country, mind you), imposed a harsh rule which they maintained for many years.

After which, we couldnt really fight again. We had about a decade of passive resistance, which weakened our opressors, but also prevented us from progressing as a nation. So when the opportunity arose, we made a deal with the devil.
A deal which could have worked, but the Habsburg family, and the Hungarian aristocracy was in the interest of the status quo, which destroyed them both.

And on the topic of Austria. For centuries, every time the Hungarian nobility steered up the Hungarian population for their selfish needs, the Habsburgs responded by fueling unrest among the slavs of the country.
They planted the seeds which destroyed their empire. They sought to divide and rule within their own borders, rather than trying to build a state that would stand the test of time. It was their family, who couldn't see longer than seeing the dynasty live to see an other day.

Mhm. You know switch out some of the words and you get one of those old swedish history books describing our HEROIC fight against the danes.

[Barrister]

Yes and why Nation States are ultimately not a good idea.  I like my states based on shared political principals and not nationality or ethnicity.  Because you are never going to have a pure state without some pretty horrible shenanigans.  Also times change and populations shift.  A more flexible basis for the country can guide it peacefully through those sorts of tansitions.

You do realize that the only reason the US was able to establish itself as a nation based on "shared political principals(sic)" is because you expelled all those who didn't believe in those same political principles?

[garbon]

Yes and why Nation States are ultimately not a good idea.  I like my states based on shared political principals and not nationality or ethnicity.  Because you are never going to have a pure state without some pretty horrible shenanigans.  Also times change and populations shift.  A more flexible basis for the country can guide it peacefully through those sorts of tansitions.

You do realize that the only reason the US was able to establish itself as a nation based on "shared political principals(sic)" is because you expelled all those who didn't believe in those same political principles?

Where did they go?

[alfred russel]

You do realize that the only reason the US was able to establish itself as a nation based on "shared political principals(sic)" is because you expelled all those who didn't believe in those same political principles?

But would you really consider people who don't share the principles that we are created equal with the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and have a right to self determination when confronted with tyranny, to be men?

[Neil]

Besides, it's not all that different from the way you people get all worked up about the Confederates.

Care to elaborate?

Some people still get pretty pissy about the Confederates taking half your country (even Berkut or CdM on this board, for example).  Mind you, I guess the fact that the Union won the war makes it less of a sore subject than it would be for the ever-defeated Hungarians.

[Neil]

Yes and why Nation States are ultimately not a good idea.  I like my states based on shared political principals and not nationality or ethnicity.  Because you are never going to have a pure state without some pretty horrible shenanigans.  Also times change and populations shift.  A more flexible basis for the country can guide it peacefully through those sorts of tansitions.

But sometimes it doesn't.  After all, the US was at war for a lot of it's first 150 years.

[garbon]

Besides, it's not all that different from the way you people get all worked up about the Confederates.

Care to elaborate?

Some people still get pretty pissy about the Confederates taking half your country (even Berkut or CdM on this board, for example).  Mind you, I guess the fact that the Union won the war makes it less of a sore subject than it would be for the ever-defeated Hungarians.

Are they really that pissy? The Confederates only held parts of our country for essentially mere moments.  If Berk and Seedy are pissy about such, then I'd call them out quick as I am to call out Tamas and his "Hungarians."

[Barrister]

Yes and why Nation States are ultimately not a good idea.  I like my states based on shared political principals and not nationality or ethnicity.  Because you are never going to have a pure state without some pretty horrible shenanigans.  Also times change and populations shift.  A more flexible basis for the country can guide it peacefully through those sorts of tansitions.

You do realize that the only reason the US was able to establish itself as a nation based on "shared political principals(sic)" is because you expelled all those who didn't believe in those same political principles?

Where did they go?

Principly Canada, but to varous parts of the Empire.