Happy Trianon Treaty Day!

[Duque de Bragança]

I'm surprised nobody had posted anything yet.
No special declaration by Orban today, Tamas?

[Tamas]

They have made it the National Unity Day, but that's all.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm sure there will be much slaughter of oxen and chicken for the festivities.

[Valmy]

The 'Damn Maybe Becoming Communists Right When the Capitalist West Was Deciding On Our Borders Was Fucking Stupid' Day.

[Barrister]

I never understood the Hungarian POV when it came to Triannon.

Sure, you can criticize exactly where the borders were drawn in 1919.  But most of the criticism seems to resolve around "ZOMG HUNGARY wuz robbed of 72% of our territory!!!111".  And when you consider that HUngarians were not in the majority of most of the areas assigned to new states the result doesn't seem all that unfair to anyone else...

[Valmy]

I never understood the Hungarian POV when it came to Triannon.

Sure, you can criticize exactly where the borders were drawn in 1919.  But most of the criticism seems to resolve around "ZOMG HUNGARY wuz robbed of 72% of our territory!!!111".  And when you consider that HUngarians were not in the majority of most of the areas assigned to new states the result doesn't seem all that unfair to anyone else...

And the whole point of the exercise was to get states for the nationalities of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  I mean, granted Hungary seems to have worked really hard to make sure they would get the worst deal possible, but it was certainly not some attempt to jack Hungary around.  It was an attempt to carry out this policy.

[Viking]

They have made it the National Unity Day, but that's all.

Who says Magyars don't have a sense of humor.

[Tamas]

 

It's complicated.

First of all, nobody really bothers with crying loud about it anymore except for the right-wing, and you cant really expect logic from them.

BUT:

We were fucked over big time. A LOT of clearly Hungarian territories were given as spoils to the victors. Which nullified any positive aspect this peace treaty migh have had to the region, mind you.

Plus, regarding the initial uproar and how that carried over to the following decades:
it's like Kosovo for the Serbs. Except for Croatia, these territories have been integral parts of the historical Hungary for almost 1100 years prior to Trianon. Transylvania gave birth to most of our artists. What you now call Bratislava was the political capital of Hungary for centuries. Within it, the székelys remain to this day a close Hungarian community in the mountains. Lots of extended families found themselves separated by borders.

Needless to say, the country's economy was destroyed by the switch. Neither the infrastructure, nor the economical players were prepared for 2/3rd of the country being taken away, divided up by hostile states.

It was a disgrace and probably the worst grand peace treaty of history.

[Valmy]

We were fucked over big time. A LOT of clearly Hungarian territories were given as spoils to the victors. Which nullified any positive aspect this peace treaty migh have had to the region, mind you.

Well alot of it was based on boots on the ground right?  I mean it was not like there were American, French, and British armies in the area around to divide everything up.  It was more like the Serbs saying 'this is what is ours...and in fact we are already there.'.

It was a disgrace and probably the worst grand peace treaty of history.

Well it was based on a disgraceful and horrible doctrine: national self-determination.  You should have genocided or ethnically cleansed everybody when you had the chance.  That is, after all, the logical conclusion of that doctrine.

[Tamas]

I never understood the Hungarian POV when it came to Triannon.

Sure, you can criticize exactly where the borders were drawn in 1919.  But most of the criticism seems to resolve around "ZOMG HUNGARY wuz robbed of 72% of our territory!!!111".  And when you consider that HUngarians were not in the majority of most of the areas assigned to new states the result doesn't seem all that unfair to anyone else...

And the whole point of the exercise was to get states for the nationalities of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  I mean, granted Hungary seems to have worked really hard to make sure they would get the worst deal possible, but it was certainly not some attempt to jack Hungary around.  It was an attempt to carry out this policy.

Heh.

I am not saying that Hungary got a 100% unfair treatment, the Romanians for example wanted the eastern third of CURRENT Hungary, above all they got, and they weren't given that. The Serbs wanted the south-western quarter of the current country, and didn't get it.

But after the peace, and to a degree even today, there are considerable 100% Hungarian-inhabitated lands on the outside of Hungary's  borders, not just the inside.

[Barrister]

It's complicated.

First of all, nobody really bothers with crying loud about it anymore except for the right-wing, and you cant really expect logic from them.

BUT:

We were fucked over big time. A LOT of clearly Hungarian territories were given as spoils to the victors. Which nullified any positive aspect this peace treaty migh have had to the region, mind you.

Plus, regarding the initial uproar and how that carried over to the following decades:
it's like Kosovo for the Serbs. Except for Croatia, these territories have been integral parts of the historical Hungary for almost 1100 years prior to Trianon. Transylvania gave birth to most of our artists. What you now call Bratislava was the political capital of Hungary for centuries. Within it, the székelys remain to this day a close Hungarian community in the mountains. Lots of extended families found themselves separated by borders.

Needless to say, the country's economy was destroyed by the switch. Neither the infrastructure, nor the economical players were prepared for 2/3rd of the country being taken away, divided up by hostile states.

It was a disgrace and probably the worst grand peace treaty of history.

But Hungary didn't exist for much of the last 1100 years, so calling it "itegral parts" is a little much.

[Valmy]

But after the peace, and to a degree even today, there are considerable 100% Hungarian-inhabitated lands on the outside of Hungary's  borders, not just the inside.

I am aware of that.  The attempts to divide Austria-Hungary were pretty disastrous.  Even the easy stuff like the borders of the Czech lands, well established since the darkest dark ages, turned out to be full of political landmines.

[Viking]

but do tell me, did many magyars live in croatia, vojvodina, dalmatia, transylvania, ruthenia or slovakia?

[CountDeMoney]

But Hungary didn't exist for much of the last 1100 years, so calling it "itegral parts" is a little much.

These are Europeans we're talking about, BB.  Us Norte Americanos have no real frame of reference when it comes to their "ethnic" hangups.*









*And no, Quebec shit doesn't really count.  That's one step barely above our New Orleans thing.

[Tamas]

We were fucked over big time. A LOT of clearly Hungarian territories were given as spoils to the victors. Which nullified any positive aspect this peace treaty migh have had to the region, mind you.

Well alot of it was based on boots on the ground right?  I mean it was not like there were American, French, and British armies in the area around to divide everything up.  It was more like the Serbs saying 'this is what is ours...and in fact we are already there.'.

It was a disgrace and probably the worst grand peace treaty of history.

Well it was based on a disgraceful and horrible doctrine: national self-determination.  You should have genocided or ethnically cleansed everybody when you had the chance.  That is, after all, the logical conclusion of that doctrine.

your first point: no, the south was occupied by brits and french.

We defeated the Czech troops and sent them outside of the historical borders (accomplished by the commie regime) and was prepared to turn against the Romanians, when the Entente threatened to have us stop, and retreat from the liberated territory in exchange of the Romanians emptying what is now Eastern Hungary. The communists obeyed, the Romanians did not, army moral collapsed and the Romanians marched through an army-less country to capture Budapest.

We lost to Entente power, and the borders were drawn by the Entente powers. This wasn't an entirely bad thing as I mentioned, but overall the peace was a prime example of french idiocy.

your second point: please. AFAIK, Wilson himself got disillusioned by the versailles treaties. They were based on a fucked up French notion on how they can keep Germany at bay. Trianon, the countries made there, was a part of that. It failed miserably and fucked up the region for a century and counting.