Happy Trianon Treaty Day!

[Tamas]

but do tell me, did many magyars live in croatia, vojvodina, dalmatia, transylvania, ruthenia or slovakia?

Non-Hungarian population in the Kingdom of Hungary, based on 1910 census dataSlovaks, Romanians, Ruthenians, Serbs, Croats and Germans, who represented the majority of the populations of the above-mentioned territories:

In Upper Hungary (Slovakia, Czechoslovakia): 1,687,977 Slovaks and 1,233,454 others (mostly Hungarians - 886,044, Germans, Ruthenians and Roma). However, according to the Czechoslovak census in 1921, there were 2,025,003 (67,5%) Slovaks, 650,597 (21,7%) Hungarians, 145,844 (4,9%) Germans, 88,970 (3,0%) Ruthenians and 90,456 (3,0%) others including Jews.[66]
In Carpathian Ruthenia (Czechoslovakia): 330,010 Ruthenians and 275,932 others (mostly Hungarians, Germans, Romanians, and Slovaks)
In Transylvania (Romania): 2,831,222 Romanians (53.8%) and 2,431,273 others (mostly Hungarians - 1,662,948 (31.6%) and Germans - 563,087 (10.7%). The 1919 and 1920 Transylvanian censuses indicate a greater percentage of Romanians (57.1%/57.3%) and a smaller Hungarian minority (26.5%/25.5%)[67]
In Vojvodina and Croatia-Slavonia (Yugoslavia): 2,756,000 Croats and Serbs and 1,366,000 others (mostly Hungarians and Germans)
In Prekmurje (Slovenia): 74,199 Slovenes (80%), 14,065 Hungarians (15,2%), 2,540 Germans (2,7%)
In Burgenland (Austria): 217,072 Germans and 69,858 others (mainly Croatian and Hungarian)

[Valmy]

your second point: please. AFAIK, Wilson himself got disillusioned by the versailles treaties. They were based on a fucked up French notion on how they can keep Germany at bay. Trianon, the countries made there, was a part of that. It failed miserably and fucked up the region for a century and counting.

Oh yeah...THAT was what fucked up the Balkans.  And everybody, especially the French, were pretty disillusioned by the treaty.

Also it is pretty rich to see the creaming over Wilson in this deal.  He was the primary dude who favored breaking up Austria-Hungary and he was the guy who unpopped the genie bottle by coming up publicly for it in the first place.  Once that stampede was out of the barn sure the French tried to get the best deal for themselves but it iis laughable that Wilson should not be enemy #1 here.  You think the French wanted to redraw Eastern Europe based on national self-determination or that they really gave two shits?

Any treaty drawn up using Wilson's points was going to be a disaster for Eastern Europe.

The primary French idiocy was that Clemenceau felt some sort of duty to negotiate the best deal for France as he could, as if he was leading some minor nation trying to get scraps from the table, instead of as a super power trying to define a new international order.  He even did stuff against his own judgement because he felt like it was his job as representative of France.

[garbon]

Oh yeah...THAT was what fucked up the Balkans. 

[Barrister]

your second point: please. AFAIK, Wilson himself got disillusioned by the versailles treaties. They were based on a fucked up French notion on how they can keep Germany at bay. Trianon, the countries made there, was a part of that. It failed miserably and fucked up the region for a century and counting.

Oh yeah...THAT was what fucked up the Balkans.  And everybody, especially the French, were pretty disillusioned by the treaty.

Also it is pretty rich to see the creaming over Wilson in this deal.  He was the primary dude who favored breaking up Austria-Hungary and he was the guy who unpopped the genie bottle by coming up publicly for it in the first place.  Once that stampede was out of the barn sure the French tried to get the best deal for themselves but it iis laughable that Wilson should not be enemy #1 here.  You think the French wanted to redraw Eastern Europe based on national self-determination or that they really gave two shits?

Any treaty drawn up using Wilson's points was going to be a disaster for Eastern Europe.

You had it right at first.  The Balkans were and are fucked long before 1919, so Wilson's 19 points didn't cause nothing,.

[Syt]

your second point: please. AFAIK, Wilson himself got disillusioned by the versailles treaties. They were based on a fucked up French notion on how they can keep Germany at bay. Trianon, the countries made there, was a part of that. It failed miserably and fucked up the region for a century and counting.

Oh yeah...THAT was what fucked up the Balkans.  And everybody, especially the French, were pretty disillusioned by the treaty.

Well, because they were left pretty much left alone to enforce it.

[Tamas]

your second point: please. AFAIK, Wilson himself got disillusioned by the versailles treaties. They were based on a fucked up French notion on how they can keep Germany at bay. Trianon, the countries made there, was a part of that. It failed miserably and fucked up the region for a century and counting.

Oh yeah...THAT was what fucked up the Balkans.  And everybody, especially the French, were pretty disillusioned by the treaty.

Also it is pretty rich to see the creaming over Wilson in this deal.  He was the primary dude who favored breaking up Austria-Hungary and he was the guy who unpopped the genie bottle by coming up publicly for it in the first place.  Once that stampede was out of the barn sure the French tried to get the best deal for themselves but it iis laughable that Wilson should not be enemy #1 here.  You think the French wanted to redraw Eastern Europe based on national self-determination or that they really gave two shits?

Any treaty drawn up using Wilson's points was going to be a disaster for Eastern Europe.

The primary French idiocy was that Clemenceau felt some sort of duty to negotiate the best deal for France as he could, as if he was leading some minor nation trying to get scraps from the table, instead of as a super power trying to define a new international order.  He even did stuff against his own judgement because he felt like it was his job as representative of France.

Wilson's points were an excuse for the French plans. Look at the statistics I posted.Is that just? About 3 million hungarians, a third of the entire nation finding itself in other countries? Is that national self-determination to you?

Even Austria got slices. Check that funny tiny salient into Austria on our current borders. It's a city they handed to Austria as well, but after an escalating uprising in the neighborhood, they decided to hold a referendum and the city decided to stay with Hungary instead.

[Valmy]

You had it right at first.  The Balkans were and are fucked long before 1919, so Wilson's 19 points didn't cause nothing,.

Well I disagree.  Most of those nations had huge support from their ethnic enclaves in the US.  They were whispering in Wilson's, and other American politician's, ear about how their cause was full of justice and light.  And actually I think some of those nationalists over here in the US did think their cause was in fact full of justice and light.  But the forces they unleashed in Eastern Europe towards the end of the war were primarily their doing.

But granted the situation was probably going to be massively fucked up anyway.

[Barrister]

Wilson's points were an excuse for the French plans. Look at the statistics I posted.Is that just? About 3 million hungarians, a third of the entire nation finding itself in other countries? Is that national self-determination to you?

But they were a minority in most of the areas they lived in.

[Tamas]

You had it right at first.  The Balkans were and are fucked long before 1919, so Wilson's 19 points didn't cause nothing,.

I don't blame Wilson, I blame the european powers.

And just because the situation you managed to complicate even more was complicated to begin with, doesn't save you  from the fact that you screwed it up.

[Tamas]

Wilson's points were an excuse for the French plans. Look at the statistics I posted.Is that just? About 3 million hungarians, a third of the entire nation finding itself in other countries? Is that national self-determination to you?

But they were a minority in most of the areas they lived in.

But a lot of them lived without other ethnicites among them. There was no reason except land-grabbing greed and strategical borders to take them away.

[Valmy]

Wilson's points were an excuse for the French plans. Look at the statistics I posted.Is that just? About 3 million hungarians, a third of the entire nation finding itself in other countries? Is that national self-determination to you?

Um they were Serb, Romanian, Slovak and so forth plans and they were there lobbying away.  And those Hungarians were minorities in those regions so...yeah that is exactly what national self determination is all about.  51% get to decide what nation is in control.

Even Austria got slices. Check that funny tiny salient into Austria on our current borders. It's a city they handed to Austria as well, but after an escalating uprising in the neighborhood, they decided to hold a referendum and the city decided to stay with Hungary instead.

Yes I am aware of that.  It was like an attempt to give Austria the tiny strip of Hungary the Habsburg Hungarian King ruled after Mohacs.  So the French tried to weaken Germans by handing territory over to German speakers eh?  Interesting and sneaky plot.

[Barrister]

You had it right at first.  The Balkans were and are fucked long before 1919, so Wilson's 19 points didn't cause nothing,.

Well I disagree.  Most of those nations had huge support from their ethnic enclaves in the US.  They were whispering in Wilson's, and other American politician's, ear about how their cause was full of justice and light.  And actually I think some of those nationalists over here in the US did think their cause was in fact full of justice and light.  But the forces they unleashed in Eastern Europe towards the end of the war were primarily their doing.

But granted the situation was probably going to be massively fucked up anyway.

So what was the answer then - keep the Habsburgs in power over a multi-national empire?  Considering the fact that the Russian and Ottoman empires collapsed at the same time you could hardly tell the national minorities in Austria-Hungary that "no, you alone will have to stay under foreign rule".

[Valmy]

So what was the answer then - keep the Habsburgs in power over a multi-national empire?  Considering the fact that the Russian and Ottoman empires collapsed at the same time you could hardly tell the national minorities in Austria-Hungary that "no, you alone will have to stay under foreign rule".

Something like that probably would have been the preference.  And millions were going to be ruled, and were ruled, by foreigners anyway so they did in fact tell national minorities exactly that.

But of course that was pure fantasy by the time the war ended since by then the nationalist groups in question had already been mobilized, many of them with significant American backing.  There may not have been a good settlement of any sort by the time the treaties were being drawn up.  Letting Hungary keep parts of Transylvania would have enraged both Romania and Hungary.   At least in the arrangement somebody was happy.

[Neil]

The destruction and relegation of Hungary was justified by the Hungarian treason against Austria.  It was they who forced the creation of the unwieldy Dual Monarchy, and then stymied every attempt at reform.  Just as Austria was reduced, so should Hungary be punished with reduction.

[Valmy]

I don't blame Wilson, I blame the european powers.

And just because the situation you managed to complicate even more was complicated to begin with, doesn't save you  from the fact that you screwed it up.

Ultimately this is a good point I guess.  The Great Powers were the bosses and they screwed up the peace. 

I am just not sure how it could have gone much better.  I also sometimes do not get the fury over the treaty versus the 14 points by the Germans.  The Fourteen points is really clear that Germany is going to lose territory to Poland and France.  The only surprise in that sense was the territory that went to Denmark, which you have to admit is pretty unprecedented.  Yet the loss of territory seems to be what enrages them the most.