I for one welcome our new European Overlords

[Berkut]

It doesn't seem likely that they will - conceding on the Armenian genocide is probably domestically impossible to do for any politician.

It is impossible.  They would be prosecuted for insulting the Turkish republic.

Crazy AKP loons.

[Berkut]

Shelf, would you say the wiki description of the AKP as "Religious Conservative, economically liberal" is wrong?

They sound kind of like Republicans!

[Sheilbh]

You said there was not a single law or policy that was an attempt to roll back secularism. When I pointed out several examples, your response is that you *support* that roll back of secualrism, therefore it isn't an example anymore?

None of those laws have passed, I don't think any even reached the Parliamentary stage.  I said that there were only two that I think challenged secularism: adultery and school prayer.

I like how you define away nuance by again, casting it in the harshest possible light. It is the moderate, liberal middle class literally against "the military", which of course has NO popular support except amongst the "secular elite". Right? Is that really the case - the military stands alone, and the people, the masses all universally support the AKP...right?

I take your point, the way I've heard it described is that the AKP generally have the support of the poor in major cities and the rising Anatolian middle class while the secularists have the support of the elite - the professional classes, the military and the upper-middle class of Ankara and Istanbul.

I've never said the military has no popular support, but unless they're running in an election that doesn't matter.  As it happens the military's the most trusted institution in Turkey but that figures declined a lot of the last few years because most people are sick of them interfering in politics. 

I think you know just enough about this to be good at showing only one side of the argument - the side that you support. I wonder why you are so biased on this issue. Why are you arguing so strenuously that it MUST be the case that only political party in a conflict in a democratic state can possibly have the monopoly on what is democratic? Is this strictly based on the EU thing? The nazi Secularists don't want to be in the EU, so of course they must be evil?

Well I want the AKP to succeed.  I look forward to them being voted out but I like and support the emergence of a democratic, Islamist government that has entrenched human rights law, that wants to become more Western and that has no problem with democracy.  I think that's a positive thing.

I am generally a democratic absolutist.  I think that that is the core that matters in a state not secularism, equality or anything like that and that if there's a clash between one of those values and the functioning of democracy democracy should always come first.  I also dislike the military overthrowing democratic governments - I think coups are like torture; they poison the bloodstream of a society and cause negative after-effects for a long time.

The secularists were the ones who started the process of EU membership, though AKP has made larger steps towards that goal.  I don't have an issue with secularists, I have an issue with hard-core secularists which I think are those who would support a military coup, those in the military who would organise it and those for whom secularism takes precedence over democracy.  I have a fundamental philosophical disagreement with their entire outlook.  And I think they're the problem in terms of EU membership, not the Islamists.

Having said all I've said if I were Turkish I'd be a CHP voter.  The AKP are far too conservative for my taste and have quite right-wing economic policies.  I'm a liberalish lefty and I'd be most at home with the socialist secularists in the CHP.  But I don't think the AKP is a threat to democracy or secular values, even if it were a threat to secular values I don't think that would justify the suspension of democracy.

And it's not to do with the EU.  I only recently began to think that Turkey should be allowed to join at all and I still have a lot of issues with the idea.

[Sheilbh]

Shelf, would you say the wiki description of the AKP as "Religious Conservative, economically liberal" is wrong?

They sound kind of like Republicans!

That's about right.  They model themselves on Christian Democrats and I think they are effectively a Muslim Democratic party.

Edit:  Which is what I mean by moderate Islamist.

[Sheilbh]

Crazy AKP loons.

  Until they reformed that part of the constitution it was illegal to insult 'Turkishness'.

[Berkut]

If I were a Turk, I would emigrate to Germany.

But anyway, I think the problem here is that you are looking at the issue from a privileged position - in your world, you can say that democracy reigns supreme over all. But they aren't in your world - they are in a world where theocracies rule all, when in fact the clerics are given any power. You can blithely demand perfect democracy and say that it is more important than trivial things like freedom of religion, but I would say that without those freedoms, any "democracy" is a farce, just mob rule and mob intolerance.

You support a moderate, democratic, Islamist government. Bully for you - what is wrong with a moderate, democratic, secular government? And given the rather profound lack of democratic Islamist governments, and the rather large number of successful secular democratic governments, and the overwhelming number of non-democratic Islamic theocracies coupled with the demand of the religion that the church IS the state...and I can understand their skepticism towards the assumed good faith of the "moderate" Islamists, and even if we presume their good faith, whether it would last once they got into power and the stranglehold on secularism in its own right was broken.

You cannot have a democracy where the rights of the minority are not guaranteed, at least not a democracy in the Western sense. And I have zero faith that any Islamist government would remain moderate for very long. Perhaps it can happen - perhaps even, it MUST happen. But if I were a Turk, I would just as soon let some other country engage in that little experiment.

Would anyone even be considering Turkey in the EU if the "hardcore secularists" had failed in establishing their secular state in the ashes of the Ottoman empire to begin with? I rather doubt it.

[garbon]

I would say that without those freedoms, any "democracy" is a farce, just mob rule and mob intolerance.

I thought that was a very interesting part of his post.  If a democracy doesn't grant any of those freedoms/rights, what good is the democracy?  I think democracy is the means to an ends not and ends in itself.

[Berkut]

Shelf, would you say the wiki description of the AKP as "Religious Conservative, economically liberal" is wrong?

They sound kind of like Republicans!

That's about right.  They model themselves on Christian Democrats and I think they are effectively a Muslim Democratic party.

Edit:  Which is what I mean by moderate Islamist.

So in fact they are a religious party. But you claim they are a religious party without any religious agenda. How does that make any sense, especially given the several examples proving that your contention that they have done nothing to attempt to roll back secularism in any way was wrong?

You cannot be a religious party if you don't have a religious agenda, unless it is just empty words.

[Berkut]

Crazy AKP loons.

  Until they reformed that part of the constitution it was illegal to insult 'Turkishness'.

how handy that you cn claim that the law is all that is stopping them from acknowledging the Armenian genocide. I am sure they would all love to if only it would not get them arrested.

[Sheilbh]

I thought that was a very interesting part of his post.  If a democracy doesn't grant any of those freedoms/rights, what good is the democracy?  I think democracy is the means to an ends not and ends in itself.

I'll reply to the rest later.  The point is, with democracy, that if a government takes a right away it can be voted out.  It's a permanently evolving beast, that's its success and the importance of it.

Berk, I think you're being very irrational because it's to do with Muslims.

[Berkut]

I think it is irrational to ignore the fact that we are talking about Islam, and the actions of the Turk secularists are in the context of the Muslim world, not the Western World.

Well, maybe naive is the better word.

I'll reply to the rest later.  The point is, with democracy, that if a government takes a right away it can be voted out.  It's a permanently evolving beast, that's its success and the importance of it.

What if the right they take away is the right to vote it out?

What if 45% of the population votes for the party that promises to remove their rights?

[Sheilbh]

I think it is irrational to ignore the fact that we are talking about Islam, and the actions of the Turk secularists are in the context of the Muslim world, not the Western World.

Well, maybe naive is the better word.

Ok, so why should the EU accept Turkey's entry ever?

Do you think that Islam and democracy are compatible?

What if the right they take away is the right to vote it out?

What if 45% of the population votes for the party that promises to remove their rights?

Then they're a threat to democracy and constitutional means should be used to prevent them from carrying that promise out.  Whether that's a popular front alliance of the rest of the parties in a PR system, a higher court ruling or the Monarch refusing to give assent to the government.

I went on a tangent there though.  Democracy is made up of rights (the right to vote, to free speech and to free association).  I think many other rights are negotiable and defined by the society they're in and by certain political values like secularism.  If the choice is do you protect democracy or certain values then I think the choice should be democracy  every time.  Though I don't think that accurately reflects the situation in Turkey.

[Berkut]

So the idea that the government should not be run by religious fanatics is a "political value"?

Uhhh, ok then.

[Berkut]

Ok, so why should the EU accept Turkey's entry ever?

Not for me to decide, is it? It depends on what the EU wants.

Do you think that Islam and democracy are compatible?

Sure.

I don't think that democracy and specifically religious parties that run the government are compatible though, by definition. Religion is not about voting.

Of course democracy and Islam is compatible though - there are lots of Muslims in democratic countries, after all.

Why you would support Turkey becoming LESS democratic by rolling back the guarantees of secularism in favor of religious political parties is rather beyond me. If you support more liberal rights in Turkey, then support them - it's not like only religious parties can possibly be liberal.

In the long run, I would place my bets on the secular party protecting the rights of the minority over the Islamic party.

[Sheilbh]

So the idea that the government should not be run by religious fanatics is a "political value"?

Where's the fanaticism?

I've listed, several times, the things they've done.  The objectionable things - of which I think two are genuinely objectionable - they were beaten through democratic procedures.  The thing that prompted the coup was indeed that a prospective first lady wants to wear a headscarf.

Seriously if this is fanatical Islamism then I can live with it and would indeed be happy if it swept the Middle East.  It'd be great if teetering kleptocracy after obscene monarchy collapsed and everyone got democracy, the European Convention on Human Rights and a commitment to integrate into the West.