Hawaii verifies Obama birth records to Arizona

[Berkut]

But it is not unique, and in fact has been used against about as lily white a President as there could be - so how can it be certainly racist? How can it be racist when it was used against John F. Freaking Kennedy?

It was used in a xenophobic way.  Xenophobes and racists are not identical people but sometimes they can be fellow travelers.

So? If your argument was that birthers are xenophobic, then I would agree.

But your argument is that they are racist, and your reasons do not support that argument. In this case it supports that they are xenophobic.

And now since that argument has been refuted, you are going with "Well, racists and xenophonbes are fellow travellers, so therefore this evidence that they are xenophobes should be accepted as evidence that they are racists as well".

Again, if that argument is valid, it applies to Kennedy. And Romney. So I guess anyone who points out that Romney is not a Christian is actually a racist?

Why not just admit that perhaps the charge of racism was not well considered, rather than tie yourself into such contortions in an effort to hang onto it?

Your argument is like saying that the moon landings were fake because the flag would not "fly" on the moon, then when someone points out that the flag as not cloth, insisting "Well, it is still evidence that we didn't land on the moon, even if YOU don't find it compelling!"

It is not like saying that at all.  You have not shown me any hard physical evidence.

I cannot show you hard physical evidence of something that I think does not exist. I can refute your evidence however, which I have done. But it doesn't seem to matter to you.

This is EXACTLY what the brithers are doing, btw - simply discounting any argument or evidence that flies in the face of their cherished belief that Obama was not born in the USA.

I do not particularly cherish this.  Why would I cherish this sort of thing?

And you asked me before what is the point?  Well this is it really.  You keep attacking me so I feel the need to defend myself.  So now what I am doing is what the birthers are doing.

What you are doing is what all people who make bad assumptions based on poor information and are then unwilling to admit they may have made a mistake do - they simply ignore data to the contrary, and dismiss any problems with their own reasoning as "not really important to them"...

"No it is evidence and contexts that you do not find convincing.  It is still evidence and contexts though."

That statement makes exactly as much sense when stated in response to someone showing a birther Obama's Hawaii birth certificate to refute their "evidence" that he was born in Kenya.

Ok so unless I find something that convinces you personally I make no sense and am a birther?  Oh for Godsake.

No, insisting that evidence that has been shown to not apply is still evidence is the same kind of thinking that birthers use to insist that Obama is not a natural US citizen no matter how much their evidence is refuted.

It does not make you a birther.

But it is that exact same weak rigor in your thinking that leads people to start believing nutty things like Obama is not the President, or the US never landed on the moon, or Bush was behind 9-11.

[Razgovory]

Do you know who does?  Aside from The Donald.

Pretty sure nobody respectable in the Republican Party does...unless you consider this dufus from Arizona respectable.

Yeah luckily House GOP members like Rep. Cliff Stearns (R) of Florida, Rep. Vicky Hartzler (R) of Missouri or Rep. Mike Coffman (R) of Colorado aren't respectable.
Neither are North Carolina GOP candidates like Jim Pendergraph, or or Iowa State GOP Chairman Don Racheter.

Whew.  Thank Kenya they're not respectable members of the Republican Party.

Vicky Harzler is our congresswoman.  She used to be known as "Vicky the Hartzler", because of her habit of screaming at state employees.  In a state where the state employees are some of the worst paid in the country that was a real plus with the bumpkin crowd.

[Razgovory]

Xenophobic is not accurate in this case.  The correct term is "Bigot".  And yeah, the attacks on people's religions are bigotry.

[Berkut]

Do you know who does?  Aside from The Donald.

Pretty sure nobody respectable in the Republican Party does...unless you consider this dufus from Arizona respectable.

Yeah luckily House GOP members like Rep. Cliff Stearns (R) of Florida, Rep. Vicky Hartzler (R) of Missouri or Rep. Mike Coffman (R) of Colorado aren't respectable.
Neither are North Carolina GOP candidates like Jim Pendergraph, or or Iowa State GOP Chairman Don Racheter.

Whew.  Thank Kenya they're not respectable members of the Republican Party.

Yeah, I don't think anyone can pretend the birther spazs are completely marginal. Theya re a fringe, but the Republicans *unlike the Dems* right now are catering to their crazies in a way that is rather disturbing.

I haven't seen anything like this since Gulf War 2 and the MoveOn crowd, where the nuts start running the asylum.

I guess the one bright side to the birthers is that fundamentally, it is such a stupid issue that doesn't matter in any meaningful way. Not that the nutbar end of the Republican Party doesn't have plenty of issues that do matter, but this isn't one of them.

[Razgovory]

Again with the Moveon crowd.

[MadImmortalMan]

Do you know who does?  Aside from The Donald.

Pretty sure nobody respectable in the Republican Party does...unless you consider this dufus from Arizona respectable.

That and several congressmen and Senators.  Also about half the base.

So, nobody respectable.

[MadImmortalMan]

Again with the Moveon crowd.

Hey, you quoted Media Matters. What do you have against them then?

[Jacob]

And you're not interested in theirs? 

No, I'm pretty comfortable with their reasoning.  I think I understand what they're saying, and I get where they're coming from. I'm not sure I have a good grip on your argument.

I would need some evidence of volition.  An open mike gaffe, a secret memo, a leaked email, something like that.  A letter from Roger Ailes to Rush Limbaugh (does he do birtherism?) stating, "yeah, this birther stuff is BS but it's an effective way of mobilizing white racist antipathy towards Obama so let's play it for all it's worth."

Okay. Personally, I think that's a pretty high standard of proof.

I think the simpler explanations for birtherism make much more sense than this wacked out plot idea.

I expect that's the disconnect there. First off, I think racism is a pretty simple explanation, quite possibly the simplest; secondly, I don't think anyone is alleging any sort of plot, wacked out or not.

[Valmy]

So? If your argument was that birthers are xenophobic, then I would agree.

You know what?  That works and basically gets my point across.  I will go with that.

[Razgovory]

Again with the Moveon crowd.

Hey, you quoted Media Matters. What do you have against them then?

They had the audio quote of Limbaugh.

[Razgovory]

So? If your argument was that birthers are xenophobic, then I would agree.

You know what?  That works and basically gets my point across.  I will go with that.

I don't think the word "Xenophobic" is the best one though.  The word "Bigot" is more accurate.  Kennedy wasn't from a different country.  Nor was his father.

[derspiess]

Rush Limbaugh (does he do birtherism?)

No.

Incorrect.  Limbaugh has no problem questioning Obama's citizenship.  http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201104110017

I've listened to him enough to know he's not a birther.  He's stated on multiple occasions that he thinks Obama keeps stringing birthers along for his own gain.

[Admiral Yi]

Okay. Personally, I think that's a pretty high standard of proof.

Then tell me what proof you have found convincing.

I expect that's the disconnect there. First off, I think racism is a pretty simple explanation, quite possibly the simplest; secondly, I don't think anyone is alleging any sort of plot, wacked out or not.

The simplest explanation is that there are a lot of stupid people in this country who are willing to believe stupid shit they see, hear or read.  And that stupid Americans are very willing to latch on to stupdity as long as it makes their partisan opponents look bad.

Again with the plot, it may be just Raz.  I thought he had been claiming that some group of unnamed Republican opinion shapers had been disseminating the birther myth so that white racist voters, who are ashamed to openly voice their bigotry, would have a channel to express and mobilize their Obama-hatred in a more socially accetable manner.

[Valmy]

I've listened to him enough to know he's not a birther.  He's stated on multiple occasions that he thinks Obama keeps stringing birthers along for his own gain.

Awesome.  That is classic Limbaugh.

[Razgovory]

Rush Limbaugh (does he do birtherism?)

No.

Incorrect.  Limbaugh has no problem questioning Obama's citizenship.  http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201104110017

I've listened to him enough to know he's not a birther.  He's stated on multiple occasions that he thinks Obama keeps stringing birthers along for his own gain.

So when he was saying there were real questions about Obama's citizenship he is in fact doing the President's biding?