Syria Disintegrating: Part 2

[Razgovory]

Well, he used to pretend to be Trotskist to get in a girl's pants.  I think he's remembering stuff he read in that part of his life because this is the Trotsky critique of Stalin.  The thing is, we actually have an example of a Soviet leader who was a cynic and didn't really care that much about Marxism.  Brezhnev.  Brezhnev was no saint, but he wasn't driven by ideological fervor to murder large number of people, nor was he interested in the ill conceived reform schemes of Khrushchev or Gorbachev.  As a result Soviet citizens were much safer under his corrupt and self-serving regime.  It was really only under a government where the leader really believed in Communism and wanted to make it work were people in real trouble.  Under Brezhnev the Soviet Union became a Banana Republic, and it was the best thing that could have happened for the people.

[frunk]

I'm kind of surprised by all this Stalin love.  He seems exactly like every other murderous tinpot dictator with the only differences being the size of the country that he ruled, he got invaded by another murderous dictator and he got there first.

Screw up the country badly to make sure he stays in charge - check
Create a secretive, insular inner circle controlled by him - check
Terrorize his own population with no regard for their welfare - check
Cult of Personality - check

[Tamas]

Are you still arguing about Stalin's ideological pureness? Really? The guy who sistematically and purposefully decimated and nearly destroyed the educated classes of his country? Can you honestly believe he gave a rat's ass about the long term benefits for Russia, let alone the USSR? Incredible

[dps]

My point: that the system set up by the Bolshiveks enabled the party to be taken over by people who did not give a shit about Communism, other than as a route to power. Stalin was one such, but so were many of his close henchmen - look, for example, at Beria. Sexual predator and torturer, he very nearly replaced Stalin.

Given that Stalin was a Communist before being one was in an way an obvious path to power, I find the suggestion that he didn't ideologically believe in Communism bizarre.  That's not to say that once he was in a position to succeed Lenin he didn't put his own interests first.

[Tamas]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

[dps]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

Being a brutal, power-hungry, self serving psychopath and being a Communist are hardly mutually exclusive.  I

[Razgovory]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

Go eat a beet.

[DGuller]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

Being a brutal, power-hungry, self serving psychopath and being a Communist are hardly mutually exclusive.  I

Seriously, I don't get this flipout.  The history is full of revolutionaries whose brutality in remaking their society and protecting their power is exceptional, and no doubt counterproductive.  So fucking what?  What I still don't get from Malthus and Hayek is how that makes your ideology disappear.

[Berkut]

Oh, I don't at all think of the USSR as Russia plus some pissed off colonies. Indeed, I actually think that Communism was largely attempted in basically "good faith". An abject failure, maybe even so abject as to be unfair to the basic ideals of Communism in fact, but still I think the people who ran the USSR, within the normal bounds of human shittiness, did so with the idea that what they were doing was beneficial to those involved, including the SSRs.

I don't think the implementation of Communism qualifies as "good faith" at all. Bolsheviks were extremists who managed to gain power through force in very turbulent times. Once in power, the Bolsheviks established themselves through violence, terror, and propaganda. I guess you can argue Lenin was a genuine altruist who believed rough measures were justified to establish the greater good of communism. That is a far tougher argument for Stalin, who was also there from the start.

I don't look at the USSR and Communism as being defined by the worst of the people who rammed it into power though, or even those who kept it in power.

Stalin was a monster of course, and certainly plenty of the people who spearheaded Communism did so for purely personal reasons. But I don't judge the overall political structure based on the actions of those people.

[Berkut]

Are you still arguing about Stalin's ideological pureness? Really? The guy who sistematically and purposefully decimated and nearly destroyed the educated classes of his country? Can you honestly believe he gave a rat's ass about the long term benefits for Russia, let alone the USSR? Incredible

I hope this isn't aimed at me...?

[Berkut]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

Holy shit, how did anyone go from my post to an endorsement of fucking Stalin???

[Razgovory]

I think people here are confusing "helping the people", with "being nice".  The Bolsheviks didn't believe that the road to Communism was strewn with kind words and happy thoughts.  They came into power believing in the necessity for terror and murder.  If 10% of the population died creating Utopia then that was more then acceptable.  I understand why Tamas can't comprehend it.  Tamas superficially adheres to a selfish ideology, and only so far as it benefits him.  Despite his protested love of liberty he has no problem when "moral busybodies" tyrannize people he doesn't like, doesn't care about, or for his benefit.  The idea that anyone would value something beyond themselves is totally alien to him.

[Tamas]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

Being a brutal, power-hungry, self serving psychopath and being a Communist are hardly mutually exclusive.  I

Seriously, I don't get this flipout.  The history is full of revolutionaries whose brutality in remaking their society and protecting their power is exceptional, and no doubt counterproductive.  So fucking what?  What I still don't get from Malthus and Hayek is how that makes your ideology disappear.

He didn't want to remake society. He wanted to get and keep power. Nothing else mattered. This is pretty obvious.

[Tamas]

One of the most brutally self-serving paranoid power-hungry psychopath in history, and people still after 60 years byuing the bullshit that he had anything do with ideology.

I mean Raz is just being Raz for being Raz's sake, but the rest of you? I expected better.

Holy shit, how did anyone go from my post to an endorsement of fucking Stalin???

How did YOU go from assuming I was aiming at your post in particular (which I wasn't, BTW) to being sure about it?

[Malthus]

These are actions consistent with being a psychopath - inability to have empathy, superficial glibness and charm (Stalin was, reputedly, very charming and charismatic in person), etc.

No he wasn't.  He drew Lenin's ire because he cursed out Lenin's wife.  He was the opposite of charming.

Being rude to Lenin's wife means he can't possibly have been superficially charismatic?