UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[CountDeMoney]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

If they didn't live on a reservation, they wouldn't have to live like that.

Yes, it's not like they were, you know, ever forced to live there.

[Tonitrus]

How did we come to the understanding that their culture is a "failure"?

Any civilization that doesn't have horseback riding researched by 1500 AD has to rank as a failure.

Their continent didn't have the resource available. 

[Neil]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

If they didn't live on a reservation, they wouldn't have to live like that.

Yes, it's not like they were, you know, ever forced to live there.

No, they probably weren't.  Are your reservations still run like concentration camps?

[CountDeMoney]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

If they didn't live on a reservation, they wouldn't have to live like that.

Yes, it's not like they were, you know, ever forced to live there.

No, they probably weren't.  Are your reservations still run like concentration camps?

More like Vietnamese POW camps;  no fences, because you'll die out in the surrounding wilderness.

[jimmy olsen]

We could test Berkut or Grumbler's ideas on another historical anachronism, like Rhode Island. If it works, it should convince Indians to get on with the scheme.

What the fuck is this bullshit!?

[11B4V]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

If they didn't live on a reservation, they wouldn't have to live like that.

Yes, it's not like they were, you know, ever forced to live there.

No, they probably weren't.  Are your reservations still run like concentration camps?

Naw, wait a minute now. I dont remember reading that Dachau had a Casino and Resort. Let alone firework stands.

Lets be fair. The Redskins are preying on poor white folk with gambling issues.

[Berkut]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

If they didn't live on a reservation, they wouldn't have to live like that.

Yes, it's not like they were, you know, ever forced to live there.

None of them are forced to live there in fact. Not a single one.

[Berkut]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

Go fuck yourself Seedy. You know I don't think anything of the kind.

[Berkut]

Poverty rates of Native Americans living on reservations is higher than the average for Americans, and higher than the average for Native Americans who do not live on reservations.

Educational achievement is lower, life expectancy is lower, drug use is higher, homeless rates are higher. For those who do have homes, 15% do not have electricity - ten times the national average. Most homes on reservations do not have a telephone. Education sucks, and high school graduation rates are lower than the national average by a vast margin, and high school graduation rates among Native Americans who live on reservations is half that of Native Americans who do not live on a reservation.

I don't know what metric you need to conclude that this is broken.

What I do notice is that the Seedys and the Barristers are displaying *exactly* the attitude that leads to this going on and on and on - the refusal to acknowledge that the system is broken because of some bizarre notion that by doing so somehow betrays the poor noble savages who are apparently better off in abject poverty as long as we can pretend like we are protecting their "culture".

We are not. The current system does not work. Wishing it did work will not make it work, and insisting that recognizing that it doesn't work is tantamount to some kind of betrayal is exactly why it won't get better for those who have bought into the lie that they are somehow better off on a reservation than as a US citizen who happens to have be a Native American.

[11B4V]

 

[Barrister]

Poverty rates of Native Americans living on reservations is higher than the average for Americans, and higher than the average for Native Americans who do not live on reservations.

Educational achievement is lower, life expectancy is lower, drug use is higher, homeless rates are higher. For those who do have homes, 15% do not have electricity - ten times the national average. Most homes on reservations do not have a telephone. Education sucks, and high school graduation rates are lower than the national average by a vast margin, and high school graduation rates among Native Americans who live on reservations is half that of Native Americans who do not live on a reservation.

I don't know what metric you need to conclude that this is broken.

What I do notice is that the Seedys and the Barristers are displaying *exactly* the attitude that leads to this going on and on and on - the refusal to acknowledge that the system is broken because of some bizarre notion that by doing so somehow betrays the poor noble savages who are apparently better off in abject poverty as long as we can pretend like we are protecting their "culture".

We are not. The current system does not work. Wishing it did work will not make it work, and insisting that recognizing that it doesn't work is tantamount to some kind of betrayal is exactly why it won't get better for those who have bought into the lie that they are somehow better off on a reservation than as a US citizen who happens to have be a Native American.

The problem is your solution happens to be the exact same one that has been proposed for literally centuries on how to deal with "the Indian problem" - we must make them assimilate.  That has not worked - because they have in fact not assimilated.  They don't want to assimilate.

I'm all for new ideas, and I don't think the solution is to funnel ever-larger amounts of dollars to native communities.

But the answer of "we should just abolish reserves and make them like us" Just. Hasn't. Worked.

It has the added disadvantage of running contrary to several very much legally binding documents that we have signed (and frequently ignored).

[Razgovory]

I wonder.  If poverty rates are higher in the US then they are in Canada does that mean US culture has failed?

[Berkut]

Poverty rates of Native Americans living on reservations is higher than the average for Americans, and higher than the average for Native Americans who do not live on reservations.

Educational achievement is lower, life expectancy is lower, drug use is higher, homeless rates are higher. For those who do have homes, 15% do not have electricity - ten times the national average. Most homes on reservations do not have a telephone. Education sucks, and high school graduation rates are lower than the national average by a vast margin, and high school graduation rates among Native Americans who live on reservations is half that of Native Americans who do not live on a reservation.

I don't know what metric you need to conclude that this is broken.

What I do notice is that the Seedys and the Barristers are displaying *exactly* the attitude that leads to this going on and on and on - the refusal to acknowledge that the system is broken because of some bizarre notion that by doing so somehow betrays the poor noble savages who are apparently better off in abject poverty as long as we can pretend like we are protecting their "culture".

We are not. The current system does not work. Wishing it did work will not make it work, and insisting that recognizing that it doesn't work is tantamount to some kind of betrayal is exactly why it won't get better for those who have bought into the lie that they are somehow better off on a reservation than as a US citizen who happens to have be a Native American.

The problem is your solution happens to be the exact same one that has been proposed for literally centuries on how to deal with "the Indian problem" - we must make them assimilate.

Funny, since that isn't my solution at all. I challenge you to find some post of mine that includes anything like "we must make them" do anything.

  That has not worked - because they have in fact not assimilated.  They don't want to assimilate.

Again, patently untrue - plenty have in fact assimilated. Believe it or not Beebs, down here in the US, there are lots of Native Americans who do not live on reservations, and go to the same schools, go off to college, get jobs, etc., etc.

You keep repeating this mantra that no Native Americans want to "assimilate", yet it is clearly just not true.

I'm all for new ideas, and I don't think the solution is to funnel ever-larger amounts of dollars to native communities.

But the answer of "we should just abolish reserves and make them like us" Just. Hasn't. Worked.

Keep that in mind if someone shows up peddling that solution.

It has the added disadvantage of running contrary to several very much legally binding documents that we have signed (and frequently ignored).

Nothing I have proposed or discussed is in violation of any legal documents that have been signed by the US.

[Berkut]

Yep, the reservation system is just working out great!



And why would any Native American ever want to leave?

edit: Damn, some cursory internet searches for data is even more depressing than I thought:

Leading cause of death among young people on US Indian Reservations: suicide.

Yep - you guys are right - they love it on the reservation, and would not trade it for anything! We should certainly not encourage them to leave!

[Camerus]

I don't know about the US, but in Canada it will be a loooong time before any politician brings up the assimilation question for Natives again.  The previous attempts at assimilation (including cases in the not so distant past) were thoroughly fraught with failures, abuses and long-lasting resentment.  So consequently anything that smacks of encouraging assimilation is a dirty word up here, even though most non-Native Canadians are aware the current reservation system is full of problems like the kind Berkut describes.

Aside from just not wanting to touch it, the other problem is just practical.  What realistic solution is there to solving the problem of abysmal standard of life for Natives on reservations?  There are already soft inducements like affirmative action, Aboriginal scholarships and grants (and even IIRC tuition exemption in some cases), tax exemptions, etc. and AFAIK they aren't succeeding in improving conditions at all.  More forceful approaches in the past have failed, and people are not just scared to suggest ideas - they're also just pretty much out of ideas at all.