Guardian: Apple would still be highly profitable if production was in U.S.

[Jacob]

Nah, I am not saying I am unwilling to take steps, I am experssing skepticism that the types of solutions generally proposed by government in the form of regulation and legislation are not likely to work. My resistance is purely practical, not ideological.

I do realize this is a bit of a bullshit position. I think there is a problem, but not only do I not have a solution, I am fundamentally skeptical of the very means by which a solution could be crafted even in theory.

I'm continually amazed by the strength of the belief that government and government policy is inherently futile and self-defeating.

[crazy canuck]

I'd be in favor of cutting corporate rates to the bone, and jacking them up on high earners. It is too easy to move operations overseas, it is much harder for a high earner to move to another country.

Barring that, bringing US corporate tax rates down to international norms (we currently have the highest rate) while moving to a territorial tax system would help. I think in the US this is understood, and the Obama administration has indicated this may be on the agenda after the election, but the problem is our government can't afford to reduce revenue streams. Obama wants to close "loopholes", but I'd rather see the revenue made up with higher tax rates on people. I'm not sure the "loopholes" to be closed aren't just targeted taxes at the more politically vunerable.

But dont you just move the problem from corporations pooling their money in low tax off shore jurisdictions to individuals doing so in order to avoid high income, dividend and capital gains taxes (or should I say increased incidence of individuals acting in that way)?

[crazy canuck]

The voters turnout in most western countries seem to indicate - your entourage notwithstanding - that a huge number of people think politics irrelevant, and that, even amongst those who do vote (some out of civic habit), the trust in politics to actually enact profound change is pretty low (I seem to recall numerous polls on such topic).

Well you have got me there.

And while I am pretty sure an overwhelming majority of Canadians would agree that there are much more important things than the market, I strongly doubt that a) politics and b) the capacity of politics to have significant impact on their lives, except as mediated through "taxes", would rank much higher.

That is where I will disagree.  Maybe its just that I live in province where there is a real choice amongst party policies but we have intense debates about such things.  As it appears you do in Quebec.

But I get the feeling you are using the word politics to mean something more that the practical day to day business of government.

[Valmy]

Even if, indeed, a lot of these things are fact the message remains the same: bow down your head and hope for a change that will come from nowhere, and especially not from you - because you can't enact it, can't decide it, can't control it. And you certainly shouldn't look for it in others.

Are you going to actually address my points or just blame everything on Capitalists?  I am talking about specific problems that have paralyzed the government of my country, or at least made it difficult for me to impact.  And if somebody has a plan that looks promising I am certainly willing to hear it.

But dude...we passed a bill, flawed though it may be, that attempted to address the corruption and rot in the system that was a result of hard work and political action by principled people over at least a decade.  The Supreme Court struck it down claiming that any attempt to regulate the rampant corruption and extortion going on would be unconstitutional as it violates people's protected rights to buy off polliticians.  That is not the only issue but it is pretty demoralizing when even that small and limited victory turned out to be for nothing.

So...you got a plan?  Or just want to rail against Capitalism?

[derspiess]

I'm continually amazed by the strength of the belief that government and government policy is inherently futile and self-defeating.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

[Admiral Yi]

Trying?  Did this just happen yesterday?

Anyway I was obviously kidding.  Murderous picket lines are pretty ancient history.  I did not realize you felt so strongly about them.

Now you know that I feel strongly enough to mention it when Raz brings up companies murdering strikers.

[alfred russel]

But dont you just move the problem from corporations pooling their money in low tax off shore jurisdictions to individuals doing so in order to avoid high income, dividend and capital gains taxes (or should I say increased incidence of individuals acting in that way)?

In the US, we tax worldwide income. So if I have personal money invested in stocks in Taiwan (even if I move there), I still have to pay personal US tax on that income. I don't get any benefit. The only way for me to escape the US tax regime is to move out of the country and renounce my citizenship. Even then there are all sorts of exit penalties to be paid.

Corporations have the outs generally discussed above--and they need those outs. Almost all industries require reinvestment of earnings to keep going, and if Chevrolet had to pay an effective tax rate of 35% on its operations in China it could never compete against other multinationals in China paying 15%.

[Oexmelin]

Are you going to actually address my points or just blame everything on Capitalists? I am talking about specific problems that have paralyzed the government of my country, or at least made it difficult for me to impact.  And if somebody has a plan that looks promising I am certainly willing to hear it.

You seem to be confusing what I want, what I believe and my attempts at putting words to an undercurrent of political resignation that goes well beyond the specific problems that paralyze the government of your country. I thought it unnecessary to address those points simply because they seemed to me a specific illustration of exactly what I was describing in general terms.

The very reason why I am not desparing at all is exactly because I have the vague feeling we are witnessing a revitalization of politics - but such revitalization precisely has to fight many years of people repeating that their hands were tied. So, if you want specifically American examples, I think Citizens United has served as a revealer that something political was off. I think the whole economic debacle and the occupy Wall Street movement, despite its occasional wackiness, served as a revealer that something economical was off. Are those going to be connected, in some way, and translated into sustained political action? I don't know. I hope so - but, my point is simply that my optimism is itself politically motivated. 

(and I'll continue to blame capitalists anyway I can - have no fear, they usually defend themselves They celebrated themselves for so long, we might as well remind them of the often dubious moral and political choices they make)

[Neil]

But isn't the main problem that everyone who is crying out against the system, be they the protest kids on the left or the Tea Party types on the right, is a total fucking asshole?

[The Minsky Moment]

A few thoughts:

1.  I agree with AR that the distortions created by differential international tax treatment of corporate income are a significant factor, and one that could be addressed by the US unilaterally if (as in 86) the political will could be summoned for fundamental tax reform.  Which is to say, it won't happen.

2.  The moral case is not as clear as the Guardian would have it.  Apple is a multi-national company, and even if they weren't, why as a matter of ethics should they assume a special obligation to US workers as opposed to workers who happen to live on the other side of an imaginary line that we conventionally call the boundaries of a nation-state?  Put another way, by providing relatively high wage jobs to Chinese workers, Apple has helped played a role in brining about one the greatest developmental miracles of all human history - the raising of hundreds of millions of people out of crushing poverty as subsistence farmers.  Moving those jobs to America would make Americans better off, and as an American, I personally would welcome that.  But at the same time it would leave Chinese workers - who start at a lesser level of material endowments - worse off, and one doesn't have to be John Rawls to see that from a purely nation-neutral moral perspective, that can be a problematic outcome.  And that is before one deploys economic theory to raise the question whether there might be deadweight losses that result from such a forced reallocation.

3.  I don't think the inequality problem in the US is primarily or even significantly the result of offshoring of manufacturing in itself.  But that is a longer discussion.

[derspiess]

Re: Minsky's second thought, I was listening to a tech podcast featuring Josh Topolsky, a dude who knows a lot about technology but next to nothing about economics. The main subject of the podcast was Foxconn's supposedly bad working conditions and he was pushing his idea for Apple to produce iPhones, iPads, etc. in both the US and China, giving US consumers a choice between paying a 'small' premium for a US-made iPad vs. a cheaper Chinese-made iPad.

His thoughts were that people would buy the US-made products out of a concern for the *Chinese* workers, given the supposed horrid working conditions they have to endure.  It didn't occur to him that shifting production from China to the US would actually put those workers out of a job and force them to find lower-paying employment elsewhere.  Just blew my mind that someone could be so clueless.

[CountDeMoney]

His thoughts were that people would buy the US-made products out of a concern for the *Chinese* workers, given the supposed horrid working conditions they have to endure.  It didn't occur to him that shifting production from China to the US would actually put those workers out of a job and force them to find lower-paying employment elsewhere.  Just blew my mind that someone could be so clueless.

What's the logic behind anybody giving a rat penis soup fuck about a bunch of Chinese workers? 

[derspiess]

His thoughts were that people would buy the US-made products out of a concern for the *Chinese* workers, given the supposed horrid working conditions they have to endure.  It didn't occur to him that shifting production from China to the US would actually put those workers out of a job and force them to find lower-paying employment elsewhere.  Just blew my mind that someone could be so clueless.

What's the logic behind anybody giving a rat penis soup fuck about a bunch of Chinese workers? 

Beats the hell out of me.  But given the outrage over that Mike Daisey story (which of course turned out to be completely fabricated), people apparently do.

[The Minsky Moment]

What's the logic behind anybody giving a rat penis soup fuck about a bunch of Chinese workers?

Depends whether you are behind or in front of the veil of ignorance.  If the former, then based on rought population numbers, you should care about 20 percent.

[crazy canuck]

What's the logic behind anybody giving a rat penis soup fuck about a bunch of Chinese workers?

Depends whether you are behind or in front of the veil of ignorance.  If the former, then based on rought population numbers, you should care about 20 percent.

Bonus points for the reference.