Forbes on Kobe Beef (and Champagne)

[garbon]

Do the non-snobs even care? A) They don't know better and B) already like the non-great stuff that they associate with being great...otherwise why would they be buying it?

Well, if we label things properly the non-snobs will have the opportunity to make the decision for themselves.

But you aren't really. What you are actually doing is vaunting up the product of a particular region / group of growers and saying the gov't feels that this product is so distinct as to deserve it's own name.  Rather than opening up the choice (as you've established that anyone who doesn't get the same label isn't worthy of it), ostensibly, you've set up an agency that tells individuals what is truly "better"...when all you've really told them is that said makers have a really good lobbyists and lawyers.

[Duque de Bragança]

I dunno Minsky - I've had some fine "champagnes" from Canada and Spain.

Can't be called champagne if it's from Spain
Try a crémant made according to the méthode traditionnelle if you want to pay less and end up with a better bottle than "cheap" entry level champagne.

[Caliga]

I don't think you guys are going to get anywhere with Minsky on this one.  I remember having a similar discussion with him on Bordeaux wines and IIRC he didn't think it was possible for vintners from other regions to reproduce one.  This was years ago, but it seems like I said "even if the soil, climate, grape variety, and yeast used are the same?" and he didn't think so.

[Barrister]

I dunno Minsky - I've had some fine "champagnes" from Canada and Spain.

Can't be called champagne if it's from Spain
Try a crémant made according to the méthode traditionnelle if you want to pay less and end up with a better bottle than "cheap" entry level champagne.

Tasted like champagne to me. 

[Jacob]

But you aren't really. What you are actually doing is vaunting up the product of a particular region / group of growers and saying the gov't feels that this product is so distinct as to deserve it's own name.  Rather than opening up the choice (as you've established that anyone who doesn't get the same label isn't worthy of it), ostensibly, you've set up an agency that tells individuals what is truly "better"...when all you've really told them is that said makers have a really good lobbyists and lawyers.

Vaunting up? 

Anyhow, you think it'd be acceptable for someone to start up a series of colleges (or a business school) and call them Stanford, Yale and Harvard and hand out diplomas and certificates that are similar to the ones that the more established institutions hand out?

I mean, it's not like anyone who cared would be fooled so why vaunt up these other schools? Just because they have good lobbyists and lawyers?

[Barrister]

I don't think you guys are going to get anywhere with Minsky on this one.  I remember having a similar discussion with him on Bordeaux wines and IIRC he didn't think it was possible for vintners from other regions to reproduce one.  This was years ago, but it seems like I said "even if the soil, climate, grape variety, and yeast used are the same?" and he didn't think so.

Well the thing is I am much more open to the terroir argument when it comes to regular wines.  There I can see how the specific land and conditions can impact the taste of the wine.

But for champagne?  It's all about the secondary fermentation.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't think you guys are going to get anywhere with Minsky on this one.  I remember having a similar discussion with him on Bordeaux wines and IIRC he didn't think it was possible for vintners from other regions to reproduce one.  This was years ago, but it seems like I said "even if the soil, climate, grape variety, and yeast used are the same?" and he didn't think so.

Hmm, if all those things are the same, AND drainage and aspect are the same AND similar viticultural and vinification methods are used, then the results should be very similar.  But really I can't think of any place that does have the same soil and climate as Bdx.

With sparkling, it's actually easy to make the comparison because many of the big Champagne marques make wines elsewhere.  Eg. Roederer makes a very nice sparkling wine in Anderson Valley.  But if you taste it horizontally vs the Champagnes from the same house, there is a very obvious difference in style.

[derspiess]

Semi-related, I was trying to explain to a co-worker once why the Remy Martin bottle at the bar had the word "Champagne" on it & I think I made his head explode.  I think he was unable to comprehend that "Champagne" can refer to either the better-known region or some of the areas in the Cognac region. 

On a separate occasion I had someone argue with me tooth & nail that cognac is not a brandy.

I don't have many co-workers I can relate to

[Caliga]

Hmm, if all those things are the same, AND drainage and aspect are the same AND similar viticultural and vinification methods are used, then the results should be very similar.  But really I can't think of any place that does have the same soil and climate as Bdx.

Ok, then I guess we do agree.  I haven't searched, but I bet there's some region somewhere that claims to have the same climate, etc. and tries to mimic the Bordeaux styles (you would think somewhere in Oregon or Washington would be in a position to make such a claim, right?)

[Caliga]

Semi-related, I was trying to explain to a co-worker once why the Remy Martin bottle at the bar had the word "Champagne" on it & I think I made his head explode.  I think he was unable to comprehend that "Champagne" can refer to either the better-known region or some of the areas in the Cognac region. 

On a separate occasion I had someone argue with me tooth & nail that cognac is not a brandy.

I don't have many co-workers I can relate to

I have ancestors from Champagne.  OMG am I descended from alcohol 

[derspiess]

Well the thing is I am much more open to the terroir argument when it comes to regular wines.  There I can see how the specific land and conditions can impact the taste of the wine.

Tobacco is pretty much the same way.  That's why it's pretty much impossible to replicate the taste of a Cuban cigar.  Not that you can't make a better cigar, just that Cuban cigars have a very unique taste.

[garbon]

Vaunting up? 

Yes, the distinction makes it pretty clear that the products that don't get the name aren't as good. Sheilbh sort of claimed that wasn't the case but then talked about how bad feta is that isn't from Greece.

Anyhow, you think it'd be acceptable for someone to start up a series of colleges (or a business school) and call them Stanford, Yale and Harvard and hand out diplomas and certificates that are similar to the ones that the more established institutions hand out?

I mean, it's not like anyone who cared would be fooled so why vaunt up these other schools? Just because they have good lobbyists and lawyers?

I don't think that's the right comparison. A similar angle would be if it was decided that only the top 20 universities could be called universities and everything else had to be called a college (or something else).  After all, each already has a great reputation as individual brands, what would be the point of the distinction?  You'd be establishing that said schools are the very best by controlling the terminology.

[Caliga]

I like Cuban cigars, but I guess I don't smoke cigars enough in general to tell them apart from a good Dominican cigar.

[The Minsky Moment]

Ok, then I guess we do agree.  I haven't searched, but I bet there's some region somewhere that claims to have the same climate, etc. and tries to mimic the Bordeaux styles (you would think somewhere in Oregon or Washington would be in a position to make such a claim, right?)

Washington might be close but Bordeaux is maritime and the Washington wine regions are well inland.

[derspiess]

I like Cuban cigars, but I guess I don't smoke cigars enough in general to tell them apart from a good Dominican cigar.

I would say there's somewhat less distinction now than there was 10-20 years ago (shit, I'm not only old but have been smoking cigars for a long time!).  Back then, all Dominican cigars tended to be very mellow & light tasting.  Now it's all over the spectrum of tastes & strength, with the different tobaccos & blends that have been developed.

Whenever the embargo is lifted, it will be interesting to try Cuban tobacco blended with other tobacco, as well as introducing some different types of tobacco to Cuban farms.  Not to mention how nice it will be to have a more reliable supply of Bolivar Belicosos Finos.