Trayvon Martin case: use of Stand Your Ground law or pursuit of a black teen?

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah, I've heard the various 911 calls, only heard one shot.

[Rasputin]

following someone on a common area of a neighborhood is not a crime and does not create imminent fear of death in most normal circumstances

physically assaulting someone does reasonably provoke fear on the part of the assaulted

It is if he is chasing the kid with a gun.  He is not a sworn law enforcement officer or an agent of an institution or organization empowered by law to do so, and is not empowered by anyone--not Florida, not the Constitution, not God--to approach an individual with a deadly weapon.

His actions aggravated the situation, and in effect, fall under the definition of assault.  Martin was the victim of assault by an armed assailant, who was subsequently murdered by said assailant.

there's no evidence ive heard that he chased the kid with a gun

lawfully having posession of a CONCEALED weapon is not chasing someone with a gun

[Razgovory]

the police didnt take zimmermans word for it

the police found physical objective evidence corroborating zimmermans word for it

thats enough for the police to believe that a crime could not be proven giving them discretion to not charge

the police certainly had discretion to charge zimmerman and let the prosector or a judge decide but it was within their powers to not charge

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case


so my position remains this is a completely un newsworthy event that the media has turned into yet another stupid distraction from more important issues

the media have become as much a form of escapist entertainment as universal studios

What more important issues are that are being distracted from here?  And yeah, they took Zimmerman's word for it.  The physical evidence was that Zimmerman was bloody.

From what we know:  Martin had left his father's girlfriend house to go to a 7-11 to purchase some candy.  On the way back Zimmerman started to follow him in his car. Zimmerman called 9-11 to report the kid saying that he was acting suspicious.  The police told Zimmerman to take no action.  Zimmerman then claimed that Martin "took off".  The police asked if he was in pursuit of the kid and he said yes.  The police told him not to do that.  Zimmerman mutter something about "Fucking Coons" and gets out of his car.

At this point it becomes hazy.  Zimmerman claims he got out of his car to read a street sign and Martin attacked him from behind.  He then shot Martin. There were two witness but they don't agree what happened.  Martin was talking on his phone at the time of the incident.  His girlfriend has come forward as the person he was talking to.  She claimed that he was complaining someone was following him.  She said that she heard her boyfriend say 'What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?"'  This was followed by a thud and the phone going out.  T-mobile has confirmed that Martin was on the phone at the time.

What is known is that Zimmerman did shoot and kill Martin.

[Sheilbh]

sheilbh's reference to the warning shot is the first i've heard of it

It's here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/us/justice-department-investigation-is-sought-in-florida-teenagers-shooting-death.html?_r=2&src=tp

The police in of Sanford, where the shooting took place, are not revealing details of the investigation. Late Friday night, after weeks of pressure, the police played the 911 calls in the case for the family and gave copies to the news media. On the recordings, one shot, an apparent warning or miss, is heard, followed by a voice begging or pleading, and a cry. A second shot is then heard, and the pleading stops.
...
The two got into a struggle that was partly overheard by a few neighbors. Mr. Zimmerman wound up with a bloody nose and a cut to the back of his head. Trayvon was shot in the chest.

Mary Cutcher and her roommate said they heard Trayvon pleading. Then they heard a gunshot. They rushed outside and saw Mr. Zimmerman standing over the teenager. Ms. Cutcher said she did not think it was self-defense and added that the police took only a brief statement, despite her efforts to go into detail.

In a statement Thursday, the police said her statement to them matched Mr. Zimmerman's.

[Rasputin]

a warning shot and a miss are two very different things under the law

id have to hear the tapes myself

its hard to reconclie "sounds of pleading" to a cut to the back of zimmerman's head

i suspect the grand jury will let us know what they think of the evidence soon enough

[CountDeMoney]

following someone on a common area of a neighborhood is not a crime and does not create imminent fear of death in most normal circumstances

physically assaulting someone does reasonably provoke fear on the part of the assaulted

It is if he is chasing the kid with a gun.  He is not a sworn law enforcement officer or an agent of an institution or organization empowered by law to do so, and is not empowered by anyone--not Florida, not the Constitution, not God--to approach an individual with a deadly weapon.

His actions aggravated the situation, and in effect, fall under the definition of assault.  Martin was the victim of assault by an armed assailant, who was subsequently murdered by said assailant.

there's no evidence ive heard that he chased the kid with a gun

lawfully having posession of a CONCEALED weapon is not chasing someone with a gun

We don't yet know if the weapon was concealed or not.   It was certainly brandished at the point of conflict, though.  Didn't shoot the kid through his holster.

He stated to the 911 operator he was following him, and continued to do so after instructed not to by the 911 operator.  Sounds to me like Martin felt he was being chased.

[Martinus]

that being said, the sanford police (an orlando bedroom community) claim that zimmerman had a bloody nose and a cut on the back of his head providing contempoaraneous physical evidence that martin in fact attacked him before the shooting -- what possible motive does a cop have for not making an arrest absent a genuine belief that there is insufficient evidence that a crime occured?

there is a duty on the part of police and prosecutors to not charge people with crimes if it appears that the evidence will not be sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

Wait wait a guy shot dead on public property by a dude who regularly calls 911 lying to dispatchers about being part of a nieghborhood watch does not even merit a Grand Jury hearing?  A bloody nose justifies just taking a shooters word on his motives?

And the public debt?  What are there so many people being shot dead on public property in that jurisdiction it would bring down their public finances to try to indict all of them or something?

the police didnt take zimmermans word for it

the police found physical objective evidence corroborating zimmermans word for it

thats enough for the police to believe that a crime could not be proven giving them discretion to not charge

the police certainly had discretion to charge zimmerman and let the prosector or a judge decide but it was within their powers to not charge

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case


so my position remains this is a completely un newsworthy event that the media has turned into yet another stupid distraction from more important issues

the media have become as much a form of escapist entertainment as universal studios

Do you write your legal documents with no interpunction or capital letters too? Because it is bloody difficult to read.

[Sheilbh]

its hard to reconclie "sounds of pleading" to a cut to the back of zimmerman's head

I'm not sure that it's that difficult to reconcile.  There's a scuffle.  Then Zimmerman pulls a gun.  During the scuffle he's hurt, once he's pulled a gun Martin starts pleading - especially after a first shot.

[Razgovory]

following someone on a common area of a neighborhood is not a crime and does not create imminent fear of death in most normal circumstances

physically assaulting someone does reasonably provoke fear on the part of the assaulted

I think being stalked by someone on a dark and rainy night is a pretty scary thing.

[Rasputin]

that being said, the sanford police (an orlando bedroom community) claim that zimmerman had a bloody nose and a cut on the back of his head providing contempoaraneous physical evidence that martin in fact attacked him before the shooting -- what possible motive does a cop have for not making an arrest absent a genuine belief that there is insufficient evidence that a crime occured?

there is a duty on the part of police and prosecutors to not charge people with crimes if it appears that the evidence will not be sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

Wait wait a guy shot dead on public property by a dude who regularly calls 911 lying to dispatchers about being part of a nieghborhood watch does not even merit a Grand Jury hearing?  A bloody nose justifies just taking a shooters word on his motives?

And the public debt?  What are there so many people being shot dead on public property in that jurisdiction it would bring down their public finances to try to indict all of them or something?

the police didnt take zimmermans word for it

the police found physical objective evidence corroborating zimmermans word for it

thats enough for the police to believe that a crime could not be proven giving them discretion to not charge

the police certainly had discretion to charge zimmerman and let the prosector or a judge decide but it was within their powers to not charge

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case


so my position remains this is a completely un newsworthy event that the media has turned into yet another stupid distraction from more important issues

the media have become as much a form of escapist entertainment as universal studios

Do you write your legal documents with no interpunction or capital letters too? Because it is bloody difficult to read.

i don't type but with one finger

my assistant types my dictation and makes my handwritten edits to documents; it's all very old school and effective

here; i just hunt and peck....you're a bright boy; you'll keep up just fine

[Razgovory]

its hard to reconclie "sounds of pleading" to a cut to the back of zimmerman's head

I'm not sure that it's that difficult to reconcile.  There's a scuffle.  Then Zimmerman pulls a gun.  During the scuffle he's hurt, once he's pulled a gun Martin starts pleading - especially after a first shot.

Or Zimmerman cuts himself to give the impression of being in danger.  Or he just had blood on him, said that he had been hurt to the police, who simply accepted his story and let him go. 

Did the police take him in?  Did they photograph these defensive wounds?  Did they do any investigation?  I mean, this is a homicide.

[Rasputin]

following someone on a common area of a neighborhood is not a crime and does not create imminent fear of death in most normal circumstances

physically assaulting someone does reasonably provoke fear on the part of the assaulted

I think being stalked by someone on a dark and rainy night is a pretty scary thing.

pretty scary thing is still less than the standard for use of deadly force in self defense whereas someone ripping a gash in the back of your head probably does meet the test

does anyone believe we would be having this discussion if:

1. zimmerman had been black; or

2. zimmerman's  name had been sanchez?

[Martinus]

following someone on a common area of a neighborhood is not a crime and does not create imminent fear of death in most normal circumstances

physically assaulting someone does reasonably provoke fear on the part of the assaulted

I think being stalked by someone on a dark and rainy night is a pretty scary thing.

pretty scary thing is still less than the standard for use of deadly force in self defense whereas someone ripping a gash in the back of your head probably does meet the test

does anyone believe we would be having this discussion if:

1. zimmerman had been black; or

2. zimmerman's  name had been sanchez?

What evidence do you have that Zimmerman used deadly force?

You seem to be perfectly happy to resolve all holes/inconsistencies in the story in the favour of the killer.

[CountDeMoney]

What evidence do you have that Zimmerman used deadly force?

He shot a kid dead, with force that was deadly.

What evidence do you have that you went to law school?

[Razgovory]

following someone on a common area of a neighborhood is not a crime and does not create imminent fear of death in most normal circumstances

physically assaulting someone does reasonably provoke fear on the part of the assaulted

I think being stalked by someone on a dark and rainy night is a pretty scary thing.

pretty scary thing is still less than the standard for use of deadly force in self defense whereas someone ripping a gash in the back of your head probably does meet the test

does anyone believe we would be having this discussion if:

1. zimmerman had been black; or

2. zimmerman's  name had been sanchez?

No.  Of course not.  The police would have arrested Zimmerman if he was black.

Martin didn't have a gun, he wasn't the one who could use deadly force.  Where is this terrible "gash".

Here's a better question.  If Martin had been stalking Zimmerman and then Zimmerman shot him, would Zimmerman have been arrested?