Trayvon Martin case: use of Stand Your Ground law or pursuit of a black teen?

[Valmy]

that being said, the sanford police (an orlando bedroom community) claim that zimmerman had a bloody nose and a cut on the back of his head providing contempoaraneous physical evidence that martin in fact attacked him before the shooting -- what possible motive does a cop have for not making an arrest absent a genuine belief that there is insufficient evidence that a crime occured?

there is a duty on the part of police and prosecutors to not charge people with crimes if it appears that the evidence will not be sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

Wait wait a guy shot dead on public property by a dude who regularly calls 911 lying to dispatchers about being part of a nieghborhood watch does not even merit a Grand Jury hearing?  A bloody nose justifies just taking a shooters word on his motives?

And the public debt?  What are there so many people being shot dead on public property in that jurisdiction it would bring down their public finances to try to indict all of them or something?

[Rasputin]

under the common law, one had a duty to retreat, if possible, before being allowed to use deadly force in self defense

despite the media hype and "legal experts" spouting off to advance their agendas, the only thing this law does is eliminate the common law duty to retreat.

under the common law victims of crime who used deadly force in self defense often found themselves on trial because some prosecutor claimed that the victim could have retreated instead of defend themselves

the law is good and regardless of what happened here changing the law because of a fringe case is bad policy

that being said, the sanford police (an orlando bedroom community) claim that zimmerman had a bloody nose and a cut on the back of his head providing contempoaraneous physical evidence that martin in fact attacked zimmerman before the shooting -- what possible motive does a cop have for not making an arrest absent a genuine belief that there is insufficient evidence that a crime occured?

there is a duty on the part of police and prosecutors to not charge people with crimes if it appears that the evidence will not be sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

that being said, let's let the mob justice and racial hysteria continue because its far easier for the media and hoi polloi to understand "dude with white sounding last name kills black kid and gets away with it = racism" than explaining why trillions of dollars in public debt to foreign sovereigns is threatenng to destroy all of  our grandchildren

What troubles me is that it sounds like Zimmerman chased the kid down.  There's a difference between not retreating and actively pursuing.  Would the law still favor Zimmerman if he had pursued the kid?

following the kid at a distance while waiting for the police to arrive does not mean zimmerman was the aggressor

if zimmerman chased him and shot him thats a crime

here the police believed the evidence suggested zimmerman follows martin

martin gets pissed at it and assaults zimmerman

zimmerman shoots martin

under these facts, zimmerman did not commit a crime

[Kleves]

Dude, it's a white guy shooting a black kid in Florida.  Of course they're just going to take his word for it.

Why do you (and the media) want so badly for the shooter to be white? I mean, today in the paper they called Zimmerman a "white Hispanic." There does seem to be a racial element to the story; does understanding this require it to be made into white-on-black violence?

[CountDeMoney]

Dude, it's a white guy shooting a black kid in Florida.  Of course they're just going to take his word for it.

Why do you (and the media) want so badly for the shooter to be white? I mean, today in the paper they called Zimmerman a "white Hispanic." There does seem to be a racial element to the story; does understanding this require it to be made into white-on-black violence?

He's a nigga-hatin' cracka with a gun.  End of story.

[Fate]

Dude, it's a white guy shooting a black kid in Florida.  Of course they're just going to take his word for it.

Why do you (and the media) want so badly for the shooter to be white? I mean, today in the paper they called Zimmerman a "white Hispanic." There does seem to be a racial element to the story; does understanding this require it to be made into white-on-black violence?

Brown on black violence or white on black violence? It makes no difference. Both cultures think themselves superior to the nigger. It's all about race.

[Valmy]

Why do you (and the media) want so badly for the shooter to be white? I mean, today in the paper they called Zimmerman a "white Hispanic." There does seem to be a racial element to the story; does understanding this require it to be made into white-on-black violence?

I remember some flap about a black guy being killed shortly after breaking into a pureblooded Native American guy's house.  Though there he was trying to just knock the intruder unconcious, but wooden baseball bats to the head are alot more fatal IRL than in the movies.  Anyway the media also tried to make it white-on-black.

[Rasputin]

that being said, the sanford police (an orlando bedroom community) claim that zimmerman had a bloody nose and a cut on the back of his head providing contempoaraneous physical evidence that martin in fact attacked him before the shooting -- what possible motive does a cop have for not making an arrest absent a genuine belief that there is insufficient evidence that a crime occured?

there is a duty on the part of police and prosecutors to not charge people with crimes if it appears that the evidence will not be sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

Wait wait a guy shot dead on public property by a dude who regularly calls 911 lying to dispatchers about being part of a nieghborhood watch does not even merit a Grand Jury hearing?  A bloody nose justifies just taking a shooters word on his motives?

And the public debt?  What are there so many people being shot dead on public property in that jurisdiction it would bring down their public finances to try to indict all of them or something?

the police didnt take zimmermans word for it

the police found physical objective evidence corroborating zimmermans word for it

thats enough for the police to believe that a crime could not be proven giving them discretion to not charge

the police certainly had discretion to charge zimmerman and let the prosector or a judge decide but it was within their powers to not charge

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case


so my position remains this is a completely un newsworthy event that the media has turned into yet another stupid distraction from more important issues

the media have become as much a form of escapist entertainment as universal studios

[alfred russel]

Wait, Portuguese people could be considered as Hispanic ?  Why not Hispanian if you want to use it in an Antiquity context ?

When Obama appointed a hispanic to the supreme court, and it was widely reported that it was the first ever, some republicans had a hissy fit because 100 years ago some guy with spanish heritage who came to the US by way of the Netherlands was on the supreme court--hence blatant media bias to call her the first.

I may be getting the details wrong here.

[Valmy]

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case

Oh for fucksake dude I am discussing it on a message board on Languish.  How is that jumping on a soap box?  I am talking about it here asking about the facts not writing a fucking story in the newspaper.  What facts do you have to contribute that I should have figured out first?

[CountDeMoney]

thats enough for the police to believe that a crime could not be proven giving them discretion to not charge

the police certainly had discretion to charge zimmerman and let the prosector or a judge decide but it was within their powers to not charge

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case

They're all epic fail, and the grand jury didn't start looking into it until political pressure appeared.

so my position remains this is a completely un newsworthy event that the media has turned into yet another stupid distraction from more important issues

I doubt this will affect the law in the near term, so don't worry;  you'll still have a chance to shoot a minority yourself for quite a while.  So you can stop panicking.

[Rasputin]

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case

Oh for fucksake dude I am discussing it on a message board on Languish.  How the fuck is that jumping on a soap box?  I am talking about it here asking about the facts not writing a fucking story in the newspaper.

because my whole point was the media has whipped up a non story into the latest national case and you seem swept up in the hysteria

the fact is the grand jury exists for close cases to give a prosecutor the option to ask a jury of the citizenry whether based on available evidence there's probable cause to believe that a crime occured

its part of the checks and balances for when a police department uses its discretion to charge or not

here the police decided not to charge

the prosector has in turn used his discretion to ask the grand jury whether a crime occured

this is an example of the system working just fine that has  turned into mob hysteria with accusations of racism and calls for changing laws as if the system wasnt working

[Rasputin]

thats enough for the police to believe that a crime could not be proven giving them discretion to not charge

the police certainly had discretion to charge zimmerman and let the prosector or a judge decide but it was within their powers to not charge

as far as the grand jury is concerned, that is the prosecotor's decision to make and if you had bothered to figure out the facts before hopping on your soap box, youd have seen that the prosecutor does have a grand jury looking at the case

They're all epic fail, and the grand jury didn't start looking into it until political pressure appeared.

so my position remains this is a completely un newsworthy event that the media has turned into yet another stupid distraction from more important issues

I doubt this will affect the law in the near term, so don't worry;  you'll still have a chance to shoot a minority yourself for quite a while.  So you can stop panicking.

and i'm sure the media will fuck it up based on my last name and call me a german american or some stupid shit like that

[Valmy]

because my whole point was the media has whipped up a non story into the latest national case and you seem swept up in the hysteria

Tim posted a story and I am talking about it.  I really do not give that big of a shit.  But I like talking to you guys.  So no hysteria here.  Stop projecting.

this is an example of the system working just fine that has  turned into mob hysteria with accusations of racism and calls for changing laws as if the system wasnt working

Well it sure seems to me that shooting somebody dead on public property with no witnesses should at least go to trial but this one did not even make it to the Grand Jury.  I mean the primary reason we have a legal system is to protect people and property.  If it was working it would take these kinds of cases extremely seriously (which it does in like 99.9% of jurisdictions).  But hey maybe you are right and they did their due diligence but it sure looks fishy.

[derspiess]

following the kid at a distance while waiting for the police to arrive does not mean zimmerman was the aggressor

I guess this is the crux of the matter for me.  If he *was* following the kid at a distance and the kid turned around & charged at him, I guess he's in the clear.  But if he was closing in on the kid and the kid legitimately felt threatened, it's a different story-- to me, at least.

[CountDeMoney]

and i'm sure the media will fuck it up based on my last name and call me a german american or some stupid shit like that

Don't worry, I would appear on MSNBC on your behalf.