Ron Paul, the Hamilcar of Presidential Candidates

[Admiral Yi]

And who is overusing the community assets?  Private individuals.  And the commons are assumed to be unregulated.  Like you know, grass or fish in the sea.  In fact the guy who coined the phrase later lamented he should have called it "The tragedy of the unregulated commons.

A reasonable point Raz.  But the fact is FEMA does not regulate the commons when it comes to tornado relief.

[Tamas]

the firemen example would stand if the fire department would buy a new house to replace the burned ones. Guess what, it doesn't.

[Razgovory]

And who is overusing the community assets?  Private individuals.  And the commons are assumed to be unregulated.  Like you know, grass or fish in the sea.  In fact the guy who coined the phrase later lamented he should have called it "The tragedy of the unregulated commons.

A reasonable point Raz.  But the fact is FEMA does not regulate the commons when it comes to tornado relief.

They don't?  Okay, you lost me.  What does "The commons" mean for you here?  I thought you talking about government resources.  If that's so, I'm fairly sure that they have a bureaucracy to allocate those resources.

[Razgovory]

the firemen example would stand if the fire department would buy a new house to replace the burned ones. Guess what, it doesn't.

They are still expending public resources to save a private individual or their property.  It need not be relegated to bailouts.

[Tamas]

the firemen example would stand if the fire department would buy a new house to replace the burned ones. Guess what, it doesn't.

They are still expending public resources to save a private individual or their property.  It need not be relegated to bailouts.

But you do see why you can simultaneously support the idea of state-sponsored firefighters, while dismiss the idea of lack of insurance leading to a state bailout, right?

[Razgovory]

the firemen example would stand if the fire department would buy a new house to replace the burned ones. Guess what, it doesn't.

They are still expending public resources to save a private individual or their property.  It need not be relegated to bailouts.

But you do see why you can simultaneously support the idea of state-sponsored firefighters, while dismiss the idea of lack of insurance leading to a state bailout, right?

Yes, you could be inconsistent.  Or I could be reading this wrong.

[Admiral Yi]

They don't?  Okay, you lost me.  What does "The commons" mean for you here?  I thought you talking about government resources.  If that's so, I'm fairly sure that they have a bureaucracy to allocate those resources.

I think we have a legislature that allocates those resources, hence this thread.

What does a "regulated commons" mean to you Raz?  If 40 people decide at the same time to pasture their sheep on the commons is an example of a regulated commons?

[Tamas]

the firemen example would stand if the fire department would buy a new house to replace the burned ones. Guess what, it doesn't.

They are still expending public resources to save a private individual or their property.  It need not be relegated to bailouts.

But you do see why you can simultaneously support the idea of state-sponsored firefighters, while dismiss the idea of lack of insurance leading to a state bailout, right?

Yes, you could be inconsistent.  Or I could be reading this wrong.

Ok Raz. Whatever.

[Razgovory]

They don't?  Okay, you lost me.  What does "The commons" mean for you here?  I thought you talking about government resources.  If that's so, I'm fairly sure that they have a bureaucracy to allocate those resources.

I think we have a legislature that allocates those resources, hence this thread.

What does a "regulated commons" mean to you Raz?  If 40 people decide at the same time to pasture their sheep on the commons is an example of a regulated commons?

I thought regulated commons in this case meant resources.  FEMA can allocated resources to different places.  That's part of their job.  Congress allocates resources to FEMA.

A regulated common to me is say a pasture which is not owned by anyone or owned collectively but restrictions are put on how it can be used.  For instance the Shepard can only put so many sheep on the pasture at once.  The 40 shepherd can only put say 4 sheep apiec  on the pasture as oppose to the unregulated common where they can put as many as they want.  The tragedy of the commons is when the shepherds put more and more animals on the pasture degrading it's quality.  Each sheep a person puts on commons provides more profit to that shepherd which is enjoyed solely by him at the cost of a small the degradation of the pasture which is felt by everyone.  Because the individual makes a net gain from each sheep he puts in the pasture he keeps putting sheep on pasture, as does everyone else.  It is the rational self-interested thing to do.  However, the sheep will eventually degrade the pasture to the point where it is useless, and everyone's sheep dies.  Thus the tragedy.  Everyone is acting in an enlightened self-interested and rational way and in doing so eventually destroy themselves.

[Razgovory]

Ok Raz. Whatever.

Why do you regard not buying insurance differently then say not buying smoke detectors, fire escapes and fire extinguishers?  Both are failures to prepare.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought regulated commons in this case meant resources.  FEMA can allocated resources to different places.  That's part of their job.  Congress allocates resources to FEMA.

A regulated common to me is say a pasture which is not owned by anyone or owned collectively but restrictions are put on how it can be used.  For instance the Shepard can only put so many sheep on the pasture at once.  The 40 shepherd can only put say 4 sheep apiec  on the pasture as oppose to the unregulated common where they can put as many as they want.  The tragedy of the commons is when the shepherds put more and more animals on the pasture degrading it's quality.  Each sheep a person puts on commons provides more profit to that shepherd which is enjoyed solely by him at the cost of a small the degradation of the pasture which is felt by everyone.  Because the individual makes a net gain from each sheep he puts in the pasture he keeps putting sheep on pasture, as does everyone else.  It is the rational self-interested thing to do.  However, the sheep will eventually degrade the pasture to the point where it is useless, and everyone's sheep dies.  Thus the tragedy.  Everyone is acting in an enlightened self-interested and rational way and in doing so eventually destroy themselves.

Bravo Raz!

Now please tell me what FEMA does that is the equivalent of limiting each shepherd to 4 sheep.

[Razgovory]

Uh, they are the ones who decide who gets what money.  They aren't just flying overhead dropping hundred dollar bills.  They have requirements on who can get what money (or food or water, or labor or whatever) and how.  That's regulation of the resource.

[Iormlund]

Ok Raz. Whatever.

Why do you regard not buying insurance differently then say not buying smoke detectors, fire escapes and fire extinguishers?  Both are failures to prepare.

In the civilized world sites with high risk of fire or high risk to life in case of fire already pay a premium to be in compliance with more stringent regulations. They need more elaborated plans, much more expensive materials and equipment and specialized staff.

[Gups]

Now please tell me what FEMA does that is the equivalent of limiting each shepherd to 4 sheep.

Only those people who have suffered through a natural disaster are entitled to aid?

Having said that, not really sure what any of this has to do with the commons.

[Admiral Yi]

Uh, they are the ones who decide who gets what money.  They aren't just flying overhead dropping hundred dollar bills.  They have requirements on who can get what money (or food or water, or labor or whatever) and how.  That's regulation of the resource.

If I were to say that everyone who's last name begins with the letters A-M can pasture as many sheep as they want on the commons, that would be regulation too.  But it wouldn't avoid the tragedy of the commons.