Elie Wiesel calls out Mitt Romney on dead Jew baptisms.

[Ed Anger]

When Ed and grumbler die, I'm going to swap out their names in the Ohio State and Michigan Alumni Association directories respectively.  After all, they'll be dead and it's no big deal.

HEY.

That would be funnier if I was an Alumni.

[grumbler]

Do the posthumous conversions actually hurt anyone in a direct sense?  No, they do not.  But it is an act rife with symbolism and meaning, and such acts matter.   I can see why Wiesel and others would find it offensive.

Firstly, it evokes memories of the historical forced conversions of Jews, and the suggestion that their religious beliefs are wrong, and needed to be corrected (and that bring up a whole host of historical baggage of discrimination right there).  Secondly, these were people who were murdered for being Jewish (ironically in a society where religious conversion was not enough to save you), and thus it's a rather large slap on the face.  Thirdly, it runs counter to the principles of pluralism and religious freedom of our society - the right to respect others beliefs, and not to force them into something they cannot consent too.  And while any of these points may not have any effect on the dead, they certainly do on their descendants.

Are there more offensive things to do than forced conversions of dead Jews?  Yup.  But it seems reasonable to me that Wiesel is calling them (and Romney, perhaps their most notable and newsworthy member right now) out on it.

I don't believe the LDS claims that their actions have any effect whatever on the descendents of these Jews.  Sure, if these people decide to get offended, then they will be offended, but that is a result of their own decision, not the intent of the LDS.  I don't think the LDS intends to offend, and I don't think a reasonable person would agree that their actions actually create any offense or harm for the descendents of people posthumously baptized into the LDS. The Catholic Church has its Good Friday Prayer for the Jews, and the Anglican Church even adds (or added; maybe they've dropped) Turks to the list of those prayed for!

[grumbler]

When Ed and grumbler die, I'm going to swap out their names in the Ohio State and Michigan Alumni Association directories respectively.  After all, they'll be dead and it's no big deal.

HEY.

That would be funnier if I was an Alumni.

An alumnus would know that the singular of "alumni" isn't alumni."

[Ed Anger]

When Ed and grumbler die, I'm going to swap out their names in the Ohio State and Michigan Alumni Association directories respectively.  After all, they'll be dead and it's no big deal.

HEY.

That would be funnier if I was an Alumni.

An alumnus would know that the singular of "alumni" isn't alumni."

I'm my own special category.

[Admiral Yi]

The main arguments advanced by the "offensive" camp--it's offensive because Elie was offended, and it's offensive because it reminds Jews of the Holocaust and forced conversions--are darn good arguments and I'm close to being convinced.  Monger's argument that it will rewrite history is also darn good, just not as darn good as these two.

[garbon]

Do the posthumous conversions actually hurt anyone in a direct sense?  No, they do not.  But it is an act rife with symbolism and meaning, and such acts matter.   I can see why Wiesel and others would find it offensive.

Firstly, it evokes memories of the historical forced conversions of Jews, and the suggestion that their religious beliefs are wrong, and needed to be corrected (and that bring up a whole host of historical baggage of discrimination right there).  Secondly, these were people who were murdered for being Jewish (ironically in a society where religious conversion was not enough to save you), and thus it's a rather large slap on the face.  Thirdly, it runs counter to the principles of pluralism and religious freedom of our society - the right to respect others beliefs, and not to force them into something they cannot consent too.  And while any of these points may not have any effect on the dead, they certainly do on their descendants.

Are there more offensive things to do than forced conversions of dead Jews?  Yup.  But it seems reasonable to me that Wiesel is calling them (and Romney, perhaps their most notable and newsworthy member right now) out on it.

I don't believe the LDS claims that their actions have any effect whatever on the descendents of these Jews.  Sure, if these people decide to get offended, then they will be offended, but that is a result of their own decision, not the intent of the LDS.  I don't think the LDS intends to offend, and I don't think a reasonable person would agree that their actions actually create any offense or harm for the descendents of people posthumously baptized into the LDS. The Catholic Church has its Good Friday Prayer for the Jews, and the Anglican Church even adds (or added; maybe they've dropped) Turks to the list of those prayed for!

This.

[The Minsky Moment]

You really think it's a big deal?  Sounds like nothing to me.  It's not like they're digging up Elie's parents and sloshing water on their skeletons is it?  What's the harm if a bunch of white guys in long johns proclaim this or that Jew baptized?

Agreed.  Never got the outrage over this.  If the Mormons want to do virtual posthumous baptism of my grandparents, let em knock themselves out.  This doesn't even reach the level of prayers before high school football games.

[Razgovory]

I suppose should we leave this up to Berkut on whether or not it's something worth worrying about.

[The Minsky Moment]

I kind of dig Elie Wiesel's doggedness though.  I could see him refusing to die just to show up those Mormons.

[garbon]

I kind of dig Elie Wiesel's doggedness though.  I could see him refusing to die just to show up those Mormons.

[grumbler]

I kind of dig Elie Wiesel's doggedness though.  I could see him refusing to die just to show up those Mormons.

I keep thinking Eli Wallach when I see Elie Wiesel written.



I can definitely see Tuco refusing to die out of spite! 

[The Minsky Moment]

Fitting, because Eli Wallach is still alive, well into his 90s and still actively working in show business.
I think he is waiting for Clint to go first (Van Cleef IIRC is long gone).

[CountDeMoney]

The main arguments advanced by the "offensive" camp--it's offensive because Elie was offended, and it's offensive because it reminds Jews of the Holocaust and forced conversions--are darn good arguments and I'm close to being convinced.  Monger's argument that it will rewrite history is also darn good, just not as darn good as these two.

One is born into one's faith, one follows his faith if he wishes, one lives his life according to his faith if he chooses, he weds under the sanction and brings his children into the world under his faith.  That is the choice of faith.

For another faith to come around and say, "Meh, we're putting you on our books" and co-opting you into their faith postmortem is offensive, invasive and perverse. It's the delegitimization of an individual.  That's not a choice of faith.

It's even more abhorrent that they're doing it with Holocaust victims;  those Jews were murdered during the Holocaust specifically because they were Jews:  that's just not a deligitimization of a person's Jewry, it's a deligitimization of the Holocaust itself.  They agreed to not do it in 1995, and they're still fucking doing it. 

And yeah, Marty:  they're doing it with fags--dead fags are baptized into the faith, too.  So you'll be remembered as a straight Mormon 300 years from now.  When we search "cock-nibbling antisemitic toe suckers" on Ancestry.com, we won't find you.

My paternal grandmother was a devout Catholic, and my grandfather spent many, many years involved with the Knights of Columbus;  I attended both their Catholic funerals, which were celebrations of their lives embracing their Catholic faith, and I know they'd be incredibly pissed if they were baptized into the Mormon faith post-mortem for some bullshit plan to retroactively baptize every person that ever lived.  It's not just a Jew thing;  it affects everybody the Mormons are co-opting in death.  Even the Sioux.  Dances With Wolves is now christened Mitt With Wolves!

And for the rest of you atheist/agnostic fuckwits and antisemitic homo-fuckers with hang-ups that condescendingly look down your noses on those wishing to follow their faith, and to be remembered as a member of that faith, go fuck yourselves and your over-educated, cynical, secular-sanctimony.
   
You may not have a problem with your own shit being connected to the Mormons after you're dead, but don't give Jews and others shit about it.  Your cynicism does not void their validity.

[garbon]

For another faith to come around and say, "Meh, we're putting you on our books" and co-opting you into their faith postmortem is offensive, invasive and perverse. It's the delegitimization of an individual.  That's not a choice of faith.

It's even more abhorrent that they're doing it with Holocaust victims;  those Jews were murdered during the Holocaust specifically because they were Jews:  that's just not a deligitimization of a person's Jewry, it's a deligitimization of the Holocaust itself.  They agreed to not do it in 1995, and they're still fucking doing it.

Only to the extent that you allow it to be. What some people do in their personal chronologies doesn't matter me much.  Just like I don't care much when Michael Moore makes blockbuster movies with outright lies that are sold as documentaries. And that's probably even more damaging than this - as the damage of this is only to the extent that one allows oneself to consider it damaging.

And yeah, Marty:  they're doing it with fags--dead fags are baptized into the faith, too.  So you'll be remembered as a straight Mormon 300 years from now.  When we search "cock-nibbling antisemitic toe suckers" on Ancestry.com, we won't find you.

Why would he care? He'll be dead.

And for the rest of you atheist/agnostic fuckwits and antisemitic homo-fuckers with hang-ups that condescendingly look down your noses on those wishing to follow their faith, and to be remembered as a member of that faith, go fuck yourselves and your over-educated, cynical, secular-sanctimony.
   
You may not have a problem with your own shit being connected to the Mormons after you're dead, but don't give Jews and others shit about it.  Your cynicism does not void their validity.

I don't think it has anything to do with that as I'm certainly not telling people how they can feel.  Just that I'm skeptical of this suddenly rising up as an issue again while targeting a Presidential candidate...and then just expressing my general feeling that it isn't at all like the desecration of a grave.

[Admiral Yi]

It's the delegitimization of an individual.

The Wiesels are no longer legitimate Jews?