Elie Wiesel calls out Mitt Romney on dead Jew baptisms.

[Sheilbh]

incidentally, doesn't Catholicism have something similar with the concept of the Harrowing of Hell, and Christ saving the Patriarchs?  I mean, they are theoretically the ancestors of the Jews.

Well that's rather different.  There you've a dogma that Christ died and in the three days before the resurrection he descended into hell and brought the Patriarchs up to heaven.  That is, fundamentally, a story. 

Baptism by proxy involves looking for actual people rather than simply distant religious figures and then someone becoming them for a religious ceremony during which they're baptised. 

The harrowing of hell is a dogma, like the story of the good thief.  Posthumous baptism's a religious practice that often affects people with living descendants who know about it, so it's more akin to, as the name suggests, baptism or confirmation. 

I don't think I, or anyone else would mind if the Mormons just had a story that God trawls the lower heavens to look for non-Mormons who'll get promoted.

[Razgovory]

On the other hand, I wouldn't like to get kicked out of Heaven because some asshole retroactively converted me to Mormonism.

[Eddie Teach]

It's no different than the forced baptisms of Jews during the various phases of the Inquisition.

Well, other than the part where they have to actually go through the ceremony, and then are persecuted if they stick to their true religion.

[dps]

It's no different than the forced baptisms of Jews during the various phases of the Inquisition.

Well, other than the part where they have to actually go through the ceremony, and then are persecuted if they stick to their true religion.

And the torture, and the being turned over to the Spanish crown for execution for treason.  Otherwise, yeah, exactly the same.  So, except for the actual harm done to people, and forcing them to act against their beliefs, this is the Inquition all over again. 

Behind closed doors, Romney himself is no doubt using hot pokers to extract confessions of heresy from dead Jews.

[grumbler]

The way to get the Mormons to stop doing this is to have Congress threaten to take away the church's tax-exempt status.  Suddenly, by amazing coincidence, there will be a revelation from God to the Prophet Thomas Monson that Mormons no longer need to conduct baptisms of the dead.

Interesting.  I wonder if the Pope would have the same revelation about ritual cannibalism if the Congress decided to take away the Catholic Church's tax-exempt status?

Of course, either measure would require amending the Constitution to provide Congress the power to define religion, but that couldn't be that hard, could it?

[Razgovory]

Very, very weak troll.  You can do better.  I've seen you do better.

[grumbler]

Well that's rather different.  There you've a dogma that Christ died and in the three days before the resurrection he descended into hell and brought the Patriarchs up to heaven.  That is, fundamentally, a story. 

Baptism by proxy involves looking for actual people rather than simply distant religious figures and then someone becoming them for a religious ceremony during which they're baptised. 

The harrowing of hell is a dogma, like the story of the good thief.  Posthumous baptism's a religious practice that often affects people with living descendants who know about it, so it's more akin to, as the name suggests, baptism or confirmation. 

I don't think I, or anyone else would mind if the Mormons just had a story that God trawls the lower heavens to look for non-Mormons who'll get promoted.

I think you are splitting theological hairs.  The fact of the matter is that no one is actually harmed by this wacky bit of religious activity, and, in fact, if people like Wiesel didn't publicize the practice, few would even know about it, just as few probably know about all of the "pagans" supposedly force-converted by Jesus.

To me, what the Mormons are doing is the equivalent of the Catholics saying prayers for the dead.  There is no harm intended, but they don't ask the descendents if they'd like those prayers said.

[Martinus]

This seems to me by far less offensive than several religions claiming Im going to hell because I like dudes.

The only problem I can see with this is potential defamation if Mormons now went on to claim these people are Mormons.

[Martinus]

And religions all the time claim what happens to people who are nonbelievers after they die. Hell, catholicisms has the entire special level of hell for virtuous non-believers. And until recently the holy mass lithurgy included a prayer for Jews to convert.

So Sheilbh and CdM, both raised catholic, of all people protesting this is fucking hilarious.

[Caliga]

Interesting.  I wonder if the Pope would have the same revelation about ritual cannibalism if the Congress decided to take away the Catholic Church's tax-exempt status?

Of course, either measure would require amending the Constitution to provide Congress the power to define religion, but that couldn't be that hard, could it?

I was making a refefence to Mormon history here.   At one point the Mormons refused to allow black men to be priests or bishops or something.  Congress threatened to revoke their tax-exempt status on the basis of racial discrimination, and suddenly the Prophet of the LDS Church at the time had a revelation from God that black men should be allowed to have those leadership positions.  This was in the late 1970s IIRC.

[grumbler]

I was making a refefence to Mormon history here.   At one point the Mormons refused to allow black men to be priests or bishops or something.  Congress threatened to revoke their tax-exempt status on the basis of racial discrimination, and suddenly the Prophet of the LDS Church at the time had a revelation from God that black men should be allowed to have those leadership positions.  This was in the late 1970s IIRC.

Is that the currently popular myth?  I hadn't heard that one.  Was this mythical Congressional threat actually supposed to have been issued in 1978, or was it supposedly issued earlier and the Mormons just responded in 1978? 

I suppose Congress could have issued a threat and it never made the news, but I'd have to see a serious source before I believed that one.  Passing laws aimed at punishing specific people or organizations isn't Constitutional, either.

[CountDeMoney]

And religions all the time claim what happens to people who are nonbelievers after they die. Hell, catholicisms has the entire special level of hell for virtuous non-believers. And until recently the holy mass lithurgy included a prayer for Jews to convert.

So Sheilbh and CdM, both raised catholic, of all people protesting this is fucking hilarious.

Eat shit and die, you fucking ass cocknibbling faggot nigger.

At least Yi and garbon and the rest's dismissive attitude on this issue is simply because they're inconsiderate assholes, but don't take out your fucked up adolescence on us because you were swallowing man milk in Catholic communist 14th century Poland, you antisemitic filth.

[11B4V]

 

[Camerus]

Do the posthumous conversions actually hurt anyone in a direct sense?  No, they do not.  But it is an act rife with symbolism and meaning, and such acts matter.   I can see why Wiesel and others would find it offensive.

Firstly, it evokes memories of the historical forced conversions of Jews, and the suggestion that their religious beliefs are wrong, and needed to be corrected (and that bring up a whole host of historical baggage of discrimination right there).  Secondly, these were people who were murdered for being Jewish (ironically in a society where religious conversion was not enough to save you), and thus it's a rather large slap on the face.  Thirdly, it runs counter to the principles of pluralism and religious freedom of our society - the right to respect others beliefs, and not to force them into something they cannot consent too.  And while any of these points may not have any effect on the dead, they certainly do on their descendants.

Are there more offensive things to do than forced conversions of dead Jews?  Yup.  But it seems reasonable to me that Wiesel is calling them (and Romney, perhaps their most notable and newsworthy member right now) out on it.

[CountDeMoney]

When Ed and grumbler die, I'm going to swap out their names in the Ohio State and Michigan Alumni Association directories respectively.  After all, they'll be dead and it's no big deal.