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In God We Must

Started by Baron von Schtinkenbutt, February 05, 2012, 12:51:57 PM

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Admiral Yi

Quote from: Gups on February 07, 2012, 10:48:16 AM
Bowing out. You're a pro. I'm a well-meaning amateur fitting the odd post in around lawyering.

You need to get your priorities right.

Razgovory

Yeah, I'm having a hard time grasping what Marty is getting at.

What I don't like about Dawkins is the sense he against freedom of speech and religion.  Of course he doesn't say that, but some ideas and statements indicate this opinion.  In particular the idea of "memes".  Memes are popular nonsense.  It's supporters call it "protoscience", but the idea has been kicking around since the 1970's and the fact that it hasn't fruited into an actual science indicates to me that it never will.  I think it's fairer to call it pseudoscience and relegate to phrenology and the like.  However, meme theory has deeply unpleasant implications.  That ideas aren't your own, they are sort of "mind viruses".  When viewed through this lens the freedom of to hold and promulgate ideas is eroded.  You don't have a right to have a virus.  You can sometimes be put under quarantine for having a virus.  If we view ideas in the same way as viruses then it makes sense for the state to step in and prevent the spread of "bad ideas".
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Gups

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2012, 10:50:52 AM
Quote from: Gups on February 07, 2012, 10:48:16 AM
Bowing out. You're a pro. I'm a well-meaning amateur fitting the odd post in around lawyering.

You need to get your priorities right.

I've got my priorities right. My boss is the problem.

Apparently there's no financial upside for him in me spending hours on the internet. I'm sure Raz would put him straight though.

Razgovory

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2012, 10:50:52 AM
Quote from: Gups on February 07, 2012, 10:48:16 AM
Bowing out. You're a pro. I'm a well-meaning amateur fitting the odd post in around lawyering.

You need to get your priorities right.

Or at least cut down on the strawman statements.  Christ, leave some hay for the rest of us.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Gups

Quote from: Razgovory on February 07, 2012, 10:56:30 AM

Or at least cut down on the strawman statements.  Christ, leave some hay for the rest of us.

Now, that's what I'm talking about. Pure quality. Years of training.

Razgovory

Do you deny that

QuoteDawkins is the world leader of the church of atheism. All atheists follow him, except for the heretical splitters. We know this because he gets invited to speak at places and has made money from writing books.

Is a strawman statement.  I don't think I or anyone else has argued this.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Martinus

Quote from: Razgovory on February 07, 2012, 10:53:35 AM
Yeah, I'm having a hard time grasping what Marty is getting at.

"Yeah" to what? He is saying "don't be like Marty by making stupid analogies in response to Marty's post." That doesn't mean "Marty is not making sense". It means you aren't making sense.

QuoteWhat I don't like about Dawkins is the sense he against freedom of speech and religion.  Of course he doesn't say that, but some ideas and statements indicate this opinion.  In particular the idea of "memes".  Memes are popular nonsense.  It's supporters call it "protoscience", but the idea has been kicking around since the 1970's and the fact that it hasn't fruited into an actual science indicates to me that it never will.  I think it's fairer to call it pseudoscience and relegate to phrenology and the like.  However, meme theory has deeply unpleasant implications.  That ideas aren't your own, they are sort of "mind viruses".  When viewed through this lens the freedom of to hold and promulgate ideas is eroded.  You don't have a right to have a virus.  You can sometimes be put under quarantine for having a virus.  If we view ideas in the same way as viruses then it makes sense for the state to step in and prevent the spread of "bad ideas".

That interpretation makes no sense at all. The idea of memes means simply that our ideas and the way we view the world is deeply affected by the society and the community in which we grow up - and some ideas are more likely to spread in communities than others. Surely, there is nothing controversial about this statement - or are you claiming that people develop ideas entirely independently of everything and with no external influence (and for some reason, this is the justification for freedom of speech and religion, too).

Anyway, I'm gonna agree with Gupta and stop arguing with you. You do not respect basic intellectual honesty.

Martinus

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2012, 10:33:38 AM
Raz, you might want to reflect on the fact that there is no point in following Marti down the road of grossly inaccurate generalizations.  You make a couple of good points about Dawkins but you your argument loses force when you start engaging in Marti style generalizations.

The thing I dislike most about Dawkins is that he also has a lot of valid points to make, particulary when he points out the stupidity of the literalist creationists who believe the Earth is only thousands of years old.  But then he loses points by assuming that because some people who call themselves Christian are raving lunatics all Christians must be equally stupid.  It is, in short, Dawkins' Marti moment.

Anyway, thanks for this post. Nothing like attacking me personally while you are essentially saying my opponent in this discussion is wrong. Classy. It's like a meta ad hom.

Razgovory

Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2012, 11:15:44 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 07, 2012, 10:53:35 AM
Yeah, I'm having a hard time grasping what Marty is getting at.

"Yeah" to what? He is saying "don't be like Marty by making stupid analogies in response to Marty's post." That doesn't mean "Marty is not making sense". It means you aren't making sense.

QuoteWhat I don't like about Dawkins is the sense he against freedom of speech and religion.  Of course he doesn't say that, but some ideas and statements indicate this opinion.  In particular the idea of "memes".  Memes are popular nonsense.  It's supporters call it "protoscience", but the idea has been kicking around since the 1970's and the fact that it hasn't fruited into an actual science indicates to me that it never will.  I think it's fairer to call it pseudoscience and relegate to phrenology and the like.  However, meme theory has deeply unpleasant implications.  That ideas aren't your own, they are sort of "mind viruses".  When viewed through this lens the freedom of to hold and promulgate ideas is eroded.  You don't have a right to have a virus.  You can sometimes be put under quarantine for having a virus.  If we view ideas in the same way as viruses then it makes sense for the state to step in and prevent the spread of "bad ideas".

That interpretation makes no sense at all. The idea of memes means simply that our ideas and the way we view the world is deeply affected by the society and the community in which we grow up - and some ideas are more likely to spread in communities than others. Surely, there is nothing controversial about this statement - or are you claiming that people develop ideas entirely independently of everything and with no external influence (and for some reason, this is the justification for freedom of speech and religion, too).

Anyway, I'm gonna agree with Gupta and stop arguing with you. You do not respect basic intellectual honesty.

I am not sure you grasp the idea of memes.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#114
Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2012, 11:18:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2012, 10:33:38 AM
Raz, you might want to reflect on the fact that there is no point in following Marti down the road of grossly inaccurate generalizations.  You make a couple of good points about Dawkins but you your argument loses force when you start engaging in Marti style generalizations.

The thing I dislike most about Dawkins is that he also has a lot of valid points to make, particulary when he points out the stupidity of the literalist creationists who believe the Earth is only thousands of years old.  But then he loses points by assuming that because some people who call themselves Christian are raving lunatics all Christians must be equally stupid.  It is, in short, Dawkins' Marti moment.

Anyway, thanks for this post. Nothing like attacking me personally while you are essentially saying my opponent in this discussion is wrong. Classy. It's like a meta ad hom.

It just occured to me that I've haven't seen Grumbler post at all today, yet you've adopted his posting style almost entirely.  I wonder... :ph34r:
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Razgovory on February 07, 2012, 11:35:43 AM
It just occured to me that I've haven't seen Grumbler post at all today, yet you've adopted his posting style almost entirely.  I wonder... :ph34r:

:wacko:
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Admiral Yi

The only similarity I can see between Martinus and grumbler is they both have a tendency to treat any point they disagree with as the stupidest idea ever held.

garbon

Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2012, 11:18:43 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 07, 2012, 10:33:38 AM
Raz, you might want to reflect on the fact that there is no point in following Marti down the road of grossly inaccurate generalizations.  You make a couple of good points about Dawkins but you your argument loses force when you start engaging in Marti style generalizations.

The thing I dislike most about Dawkins is that he also has a lot of valid points to make, particulary when he points out the stupidity of the literalist creationists who believe the Earth is only thousands of years old.  But then he loses points by assuming that because some people who call themselves Christian are raving lunatics all Christians must be equally stupid.  It is, in short, Dawkins' Marti moment.

Anyway, thanks for this post. Nothing like attacking me personally while you are essentially saying my opponent in this discussion is wrong. Classy. It's like a meta ad hom.

I'm not sure that CC said anything inaccurate in his post.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2012, 11:48:16 AM
The only similarity I can see between Martinus and grumbler is they both have a tendency to treat any point they disagree with as the stupidest idea ever held.

They also ignore me.  And shout out "ad hom" when backed into a corner.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Razgovory on February 07, 2012, 11:50:17 AM
They also ignore me.

That probably describes a lot of posters.