Game of Thrones and old english

[viper37]

Is that purely the author's invention, or did old english sounded like what GRRM is writing?  Stuff like "break his/her fast", "I'll see you on the morrow", the inverted sentences in some cases, etc, etc?

[Jacob]

Depends what you mean by "old English". I'm pretty sure that in each of the cases, at some point that was a common way to speak in some part of the English speaking world. However, I'm also pretty sure that at no point was English spoken like Martin writes his dialogue.

In other words, it's a bit of a writer's affectation to suggest the flavour of an older or different English, rather than an accurate representation of how English was spoken at a particular time and place. It works okay, I think.

[Grey Fox]

If it's anything like old French, it was probably much much worse then what GRRM is using.

Ever read Cartier's journal in original french?

[Grinning_Colossus]

It's a shame that he doesn't use the informal second person. There's incredible potential for subtle interaction there.

[Razgovory]

No, old English never sounded like Martin's writing.  Old English is not intelligible to a modern speaker.  Nor is it very close to middle English.

Here is the Lord's prayer in Old, Middle, and Modern English.

Old English

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele

Middle English

Oure fadir that art in heuenes,
halewid be thi name;
thi kyngdoom come to;
be thi wille don, in erthe as in heuene.
Yyue to vs this dai oure breed ouer othir substaunce,
and foryyue to vs oure dettis, as we foryyuen to oure dettouris;
and lede vs not in to temptacioun, but delyuere vs fro yuel.

Modern English

"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil."

Note: that some people memorize a slightly archaic version.

This is how I was taught it:

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

[dps]

Phrases such as "break his fast" and "I'll see you on the morrow" aren't even close to old English, they're just a bit archaic modern English.  Read much English literature from the 19th or early 20th centuries, and you'll find wording like that a lot.

By "English literature" in this context, I mean literature written by native speakers of English, not English literature as opposed to American literature.

[viper37]

Ever read Cartier's journal in original french?

Nope, only Montcalm's journal.  Did read other stuff in old French, though I can't remember what it was.

[viper37]

Phrases such as "break his fast" and "I'll see you on the morrow" aren't even close to old English, they're just a bit archaic modern English.  Read much English literature from the 19th or early 20th centuries, and you'll find wording like that a lot.

By "English literature" in this context, I mean literature written by native speakers of English, not English literature as opposed to American literature.

funny, never heard/read that before.  Not that I've read a ton of classic English literature.

Thanks all

[Grey Fox]

Ever read Cartier's journal in original french?

Nope, only Montcalm's journal.  Did read other stuff in old French, though I can't remember what it was.

Won't differ. It's all unreadable.

[Syt]

Old English

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele

Oddly, I find it easier to understand than some of the Old German versions (depending on origin):

Fater unseer, thu pist in himile,
uuihi namun dinan,
qhueme rihhi din,
uuerde uuillo diin,
so in himile sosa in erdu.
prooth unseer emezzihic kip uns hiutu,
oblaz uns sculdi unseero,
so uuir oblazem uns sculdikem,
enti ni unsih firleiti in khorunka,
uzzer losi unsih fona ubile.

Fater unser, thu in himilom bist,
giuuihit si namo thin.
quaeme richi thin.
uuwerdhe uuilleo thin,
sama so in himile endi in erthu.
Broot unseraz emezzigaz gib uns hiutu.
endi farlaz uns sculdhi unsero,
sama so uuir farlazzem scolom unserem.
endi ni gileidi unsih in costunga.
auh arlosi unsih fona ubile.

Fater unser, thu thar bist in himile,
si giheilagot thin namo,
queme thin rihhi,
si thin uuillo,
so her in himile ist, so si her in erdu,
unsar brot tagalihhaz gib uns hiutu,
inti furlaz uns unsara sculdi,
so uuir furlazemes unsaren sculdigon;
inti ni gileitest unsih in costunga,
uzouh arlosi unsih fon ubile.

[Solmyr]

pist in himile

[Drakken]

Ever read Cartier's journal in original french?

Nope, only Montcalm's journal.  Did read other stuff in old French, though I can't remember what it was.

Won't differ. It's all unreadable.

Still made way after the ordonnance de Villers-Cotterêts, while Cartier's diary wasn't.

[Syt]

pist in himile

But e.g. in Old English:
Si þin nama gehalgod

Could easily be read as modern German
Sei dein Name geheiligt

[Richard Hakluyt]

That's because you are from Holstein and thus a close relative to the Anglo-Saxons 

The OE apparently had tricky grammar, inflections and cases; nothing like the debased Franco-Saxon patois that is later English 

[Syt]

That's because you are from Holstein and thus a close relative to the Anglo-Saxons 

Yeah, Low German is the bastard stepchild of English, German and Dutch.

A friend of mine is studying Norwegian (bokmal). I had a look at her textbook, and I was surprised how much of the contents I could guesstimate.