Community-based economies the answer?

[Ideologue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gar_Alperovitz

Found the guy.  Sounds like communes.  Ide won't like him, he opposed that atomic bombing of japan.

He said that many would equate him to a communist, but in reality he believes that what's required is a new model that maybe hasn't been conceived of yet. He just doesn't believe that capitalism - or communism - is the answer to future economic growth.

Fuck.  I wouldn't equate him to a communist.  I'd equate him to a hippie.

[merithyn]

And yet the Chinese workers who are employed in those jobs would say their standard of living has increased dramatically from that of their parents who were subsistance dirt farmers.

Does that make their working conditions acceptable on a human level? I agree that they are in a far better situation than their ancestors, and I have no problem buying my techie toys. That doesn't mean that I believe that those people will remain in that situation indefinitely, nor that it's the right place for them to be. Eventually, something will give and they will fight for better conditions, just like Americans did at the turn of the last century, and when it happens, it will mean a higher cost for everyone.

I'm not thinking next year or even next decade. I'm trying to think longer term economics that will help raise the standard of living for everyone while maintaining humane conditions for workers everywhere. Is this combined econimic model the way? Is localized economy? Is Government-owned and operated? How can we grow as a society over the long-haul?

[Ideologue]

The technology we buy is affordable because of the low-paying jobs in China with minimal if any benefits or safe working environments.

Well we shall all find out eventually.  Some day we are going to run out of politically stable countries with huge labor surpluses.

Lol.  Reshoring.

[merithyn]

To me it sounds like the guy's solution is in desperate search of a problem.

You don't think that our society's economic picture is bleak?

[Phillip V]

I think the bigger problem is that as a society - a global society - we can't survive on the current model. Our standard of living is reliant on pretty much slave labor somewhere

That is an extreme view.  for my part, my standard of living is pretty closely tied to the international price of the commodities.

Sorry. I should have clarified. I'm thinking specifically of our technological standards. The technology we buy is affordable because of the low-paying jobs in China with minimal if any benefits and safe working environments.

And yet the Chinese workers who are employed in those jobs would say their standard of living has increased dramatically from that of their parents who were subsistance dirt farmers.

Agreed. Hundreds of millions of Chinese have been lifted out of poverty the past few decades thanks to globalization. And the American consumer gets cheaper and more various goods. In fact, Chinese wages have skyrocketed so rapidly that net manufacturing is returning back to America this decade because it is no longer profitable for businesses to outsource to China (shipping costs, foreign complications, etc.).

[Barrister]

The technology we buy is affordable because of the low-paying jobs in China with minimal if any benefits or safe working environments.

Well we shall all find out eventually.  Some day we are going to run out of politically stable countries with huge labor surpluses.

We pretty much have, haven't we?  I mean China's not all that stable, and companies are already investing in places like Indonesia

[Admiral Yi]

Meri: how in the world does a Clevelander not buying stuff made in China help the Chinese out?

[Phillip V]

The technology we buy is affordable because of the low-paying jobs in China with minimal if any benefits or safe working environments.

Well we shall all find out eventually.  Some day we are going to run out of politically stable countries with huge labor surpluses.

We pretty much have, haven't we?  I mean China's not all that stable, and companies are already investing in places like Indonesia

We're seeing industry migrate from China to new cheap labor supply in Vietnam, Indonesia, and Bangladesh.

[Sheilbh]

The author advocated government restraints to sort of force the issue, but I disagree completely with that. I think it should be an organic movement, if it should happen.

I don't mind the idea of agrictultural protection, clear labelling and all the rest.  But then I'm European.

I don't think it's the answer to our economic problems but I think it's a trend that's getting stronger in our economy.  Perhaps in part in response to the crisis.

That's interesting. It would be nice to see what other items that might be true of. Of course, when it comes to fresh produce, a personal greenhouse might actually be the better way to go rather than going to a grocery store, anyway. If it's attached to the house, it would require even less energy than a stand-alone box, and would mean healthier, tastier food. But then, that would require a massive shift in the general consciousness of the populations in the Western World, and I'm not sure that could or would happen.

I think one of the problems in terms of the environment is how complex it all is.  On the face of it I'd guess that you're better off consuming local tomatoes than Spanish ones, but that's wrong.  I'm not sure if it's possible but I'd support some sort traffic light label of CO2 consumption, like you have with nutritional information.

I don't know enough to consume environmentally, if I could I would.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, but those people aren't slaves.  They actually want those jobs.  There is a great talk about the evils of sweat shops and the like, but it turns out, most of those people actually want those jobs.  There are exceptions and where people are forced into unfree labor, but generally speaking, they want those jobs.  It's a hell of lot easier and safer then farming and you get much more cash.  An excellent example is The Kathie Lee Gifford sweatshop scandal in the 1990's.  When it was revealed her line of clothing was being made in Central American sweatshops.  She tearfully apologized and they closed down the factories.  You know who was really pissed?  The average workers, who while making pitiful wages by American standards, were making several times the national average.

[crazy canuck]

And yet the Chinese workers who are employed in those jobs would say their standard of living has increased dramatically from that of their parents who were subsistance dirt farmers.

Does that make their working conditions acceptable on a human level?

that isnt the correct question.  Their living standards have improved and continue to improve.  Valmy hit the nail on the head when he said eventually we will run out of surplus low cost labour - eg China will eventually rich our stardard of living.  It is patronizing and paternalistic to say to China - sorry, we dont like watching you industrialize.

Further, your author fails to recognize the fundamental fact that international trade raises the standard of living for everyone.  He is worse then a protectionist.  He is more like a nihilist.

[merithyn]

Meri: how in the world does a Clevelander not buying stuff made in China help the Chinese out?

It doesn't. That's the problem that I have with this model. It's very insular. It will help the local economy, while hurting the global economy. That's why I'm asking if there's a way to marry both into a feasible model that will benefit the majority of people and will be sustainable over the long-haul.

[Barrister]

And yet the Chinese workers who are employed in those jobs would say their standard of living has increased dramatically from that of their parents who were subsistance dirt farmers.

Does that make their working conditions acceptable on a human level? I agree that they are in a far better situation than their ancestors, and I have no problem buying my techie toys. That doesn't mean that I believe that those people will remain in that situation indefinitely, nor that it's the right place for them to be. Eventually, something will give and they will fight for better conditions, just like Americans did at the turn of the last century, and when it happens, it will mean a higher cost for everyone.

I'm not thinking next year or even next decade. I'm trying to think longer term economics that will help raise the standard of living for everyone while maintaining humane conditions for workers everywhere. Is this combined econimic model the way? Is localized economy? Is Government-owned and operated? How can we grow as a society over the long-haul?

They're going for the same development program that neighbors Taiwan, South Korea and Japan followed in the 50s-70s.  They started out making cheap crap for the west (there was a time when Made in Japan was not a badge of quality), but by gaining local expertise, local companies, they hope to move up the value-added ladder

[Sheilbh]

They're going for the same development program that neighbors Taiwan, South Korea and Japan followed in the 50s-70s.  They started out making cheap crap for the west (there was a time when Made in Japan was not a badge of quality), but by gaining local expertise, local companies, they hope to move up the value-added ladder

Which requires an element of protectionism on their part.  It's not always bad.

[Habbaku]

Yeah, but those people aren't slaves.  They actually want those jobs.  There is a great talk about the evils of sweat shops and the like, but it turns out, most of those people actually want those jobs.  There are exceptions and where people are forced into unfree labor, but generally speaking, they want those jobs.  It's a hell of lot easier and safer then farming and you get much more cash.

Pretty much.  I recall an article I posted a while back where some Taiwanese workers were rioting because, due to Western pressures, the company wouldn't let them work 14-hour days, 6 days a week any more because of the bad conditions.  Many of the workers were eager to work those hours because the whole point was to do so for 1-2 years and use the cash to start a business themselves.