Baseball 2012

[katmai]

Gibby

He was amazing.

[Valmy]

Josh Gibson's arm didn't call off for 2 reasons.

He was a catcher and he died in 1947.

Bob Gibson had a nice series in '68 tho.

Hell I even looked it up to make sure I got the right Gibson and I still messed it up

Still.

[Grey Fox]

And Game 5 is an entirely theoretical aparition when you are down 3-0.  You need to go all out to extend that series.

I disagree--you need to do what gives you the best chance of putting four wins together.

If you were the manager, and I gave you these odds:

Verlander pitches game 4: 60% chance of win.
Verlander pitches game 5: 75% chance of win.
50% chance of winning without Verlander.

What would you do?

I don't have them at hand, but I think the numbers back up that pitchers on short rest are significantly worse than when they have full rest. It isn't as though Jim Leyland is some new age guy that doesn't know pitchers used to go on less rest.

Verlander in game 4 and in game 5. Fuck Rest, you are losing the world series. You need to win NOW!

[Eddie Teach]

I don't think that would work, eventually he gets tired enough he's not pitching as well as your other guys.

[Valmy]

Verlander in game 4 and in game 5. Fuck Rest, you are losing the world series. You need to win NOW!

Well you cannot do that.  You run Verlander out there in Game 4 and use him again in Game 7. 

[Grey Fox]

Verlander in game 4 and in game 5. Fuck Rest, you are losing the world series. You need to win NOW!

Well you cannot do that.  You run Verlander out there in Game 4 and use him again in Game 7.

Why not? He's barely going to pitch 5 innings a game anyway. If has already thrown 100 pitches by then, maybe you wait & see for game 5 but atleast entertain the possibility.

[derspiess]

Gibby

He was amazing.

Now had he not been a Cardinal I'm not sure I'd be quite as huge a fan.  He exhibited a lot of behavior I dislike in pitchers today. 

As Dusty Baker famously said (though I think he was re-quoting Willie Mays):

"'Don't dig in against Bob Gibson; he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast.

"'If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer.' I'm like, 'Damn, what about my 17-game hitting streak?' That was the night it ended."

Part of me admires the sheer competitiveness, and I guess you don't finish a year with a 1.12 ERA without intimidating batters.  But I hate the practice of pitchers intentionally hitting batters OMG YOU CELEBRATED TOO MUCH ON THAT HOME RUN IMA PLUNK YOU OR MAYBE YOUR TEAMMATE 

[Valmy]

Part of me admires the sheer competitiveness, and I guess you don't finish a year with a 1.12 ERA without intimidating batters.  But I hate the practice of pitchers intentionally hitting batters OMG YOU CELEBRATED TOO MUCH ON THAT HOME RUN IMA PLUNK YOU OR MAYBE YOUR TEAMMATE 

Yeah well welcome to Baseball in the 1960s.  And Gibson was a nice guy compared to Don Drysdale.

[derspiess]

Part of me admires the sheer competitiveness, and I guess you don't finish a year with a 1.12 ERA without intimidating batters.  But I hate the practice of pitchers intentionally hitting batters OMG YOU CELEBRATED TOO MUCH ON THAT HOME RUN IMA PLUNK YOU OR MAYBE YOUR TEAMMATE 

Yeah well welcome to Baseball in the 1960s.  And Gibson was a nice guy compared to Don Drysdale.

But it still happens.

[dps]

Part of me admires the sheer competitiveness, and I guess you don't finish a year with a 1.12 ERA without intimidating batters.  But I hate the practice of pitchers intentionally hitting batters OMG YOU CELEBRATED TOO MUCH ON THAT HOME RUN IMA PLUNK YOU OR MAYBE YOUR TEAMMATE 

Yeah well welcome to Baseball in the 1960s.  And Gibson was a nice guy compared to Don Drysdale.

But it still happens.

Doesn't mean that it's not bullshit.

I think if you're crowding the plate, the pitcher has the right to try and back you off;  if that involves intentionally hitting you at some point, so be it.  But intentionally throwing at someone because the celebrated a little too much for your taste--screw that.  And let's face it, sometimes hitters get thrown at not because they celebrated a HR too much, but because they hit it in the first place.

[sbr]

I don't really have any problem with pitchers throwing at hitters, as long as it is below the shoulders.  There isn't much need for the 'Welcome to the Bigs' that Cole Hamels gave to Bryce Harper but even that isn't terrible in my eyes.

I have a bigger problem with hitters who think a pitcher using the inside of the plate, or just inside of that, is some sort of challenge to their manhood.  Getting hit in the back or ass by a pitched ball can't hurt that bad, take you base and make them pay for it.  In the NL hit the pitcher back, if you are willing to put him on base for free.

[dps]

I don't really have any problem with pitchers throwing at hitters, as long as it is below the shoulders.  There isn't much need for the 'Welcome to the Bigs' that Cole Hamels gave to Bryce Harper but even that isn't terrible in my eyes.

I have a bigger problem with hitters who think a pitcher using the inside of the plate, or just inside of that, is some sort of challenge to their manhood.  Getting hit in the back or ass by a pitched ball can't hurt that bad, take you base and make them pay for it.  In the NL hit the pitcher back, if you are willing to put him on base for free.

Well, that's another part of the issue.  If I was a manager, I'd tell my pitchers if they really want payback from a hitter, then strike him out, don't give him a free base.

[Syt]

http://maria Sharapova completed a career Grand Slam in her sport this June when she won the French Open. Now that she's reached the pinnacle of tennis, what's next? Judging from this photo, it looks like she might be moving to another ball-hitting sport.

Shooting a commercial for the Head racquet company on Tuesday, Sharapova took the field at Ed Smith Stadium in Sarasota, Fla., the Orioles' Spring Training home. As you can see in the photo she posted on her Facebook profile, she shortens the long-armed swing coming out of her 6-foot-2 frame by choking up. And if you're wondering about her choice of batter's box, keep in mind a two-handed backhand for a righty tennis player is a lot like a lefty baseball swing.

-- Dan Wohl / MLB.com

[sbr]

Hall of Fame ballot was announced.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bonds-clemens-sosa-set-show-081617598--mlb.html

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on Hall ballot for first time

NEW YORK (AP) -- The most polarizing Hall of Fame debate since Pete Rose will now be decided by the baseball shrine's voters: Do Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Sammy Sosa belong in Cooperstown despite drug allegations that tainted their huge numbers?

In a monthlong election sure to become a referendum on the Steroids Era, the Hall ballot was released Wednesday, and Bonds, Clemens and Sosa are on it for the first time.

Bonds is the all-time home run champion with 762 and won a record seven MVP awards. Clemens took home a record seven Cy Young trophies and is ninth with 354 victories. Sosa ranks eighth on the homer chart with 609.

Yet for all their HRs, RBIs and Ws, the shadow of PEDs looms large.

''You could see for years that this particular ballot was going to be controversial and divisive to an unprecedented extent,'' Larry Stone of The Seattle Times wrote in an email. ''My hope is that some clarity begins to emerge over the Hall of Fame status of those linked to performance-enhancing drugs. But I doubt it.''

More than 600 longtime members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America will vote on the 37-player ballot. Candidates require 75 percent for induction, and the results will be announced Jan. 9.

Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza and Curt Schilling also are among the 24 first-time eligibles. Jack Morris, Jeff Bagwell and Tim Raines are the top holdover candidates.

If recent history is any indication, the odds are solidly stacked against Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro both posted Cooperstown-caliber stats, too, but drug clouds doomed them in Hall voting.

Some who favor Bonds and Clemens claim the bulk of their accomplishments came before baseball got wrapped up in drug scandals. They add that PED use was so prevalent in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s that it's unfair to exclude anyone because so many who-did-and-who-didn't questions remain.

Many fans on the other side say drug cheats - suspected or otherwise - should never be afforded the game's highest individual honor.
Either way, this election is baseball's newest hot button, generating the most fervent Hall arguments since Rose. The discussion about Rose was moot, however - the game's career hits leader agreed to a lifetime ban in 1989 after an investigation concluded he bet on games while managing the Cincinnati Reds, and that barred him from the BBWAA ballot.

The BBWAA election rules allow voters to pick up to 10 candidates. As for criteria, this is the only instruction: ''Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.''
That leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Bonds, Clemens and Sosa won't get a vote from Mike Klis of The Denver Post.


''Nay on all three. I think in all three cases, their performances were artificially enhanced. Especially in the cases of Bonds and Clemens, their production went up abnormally late in their careers,'' he wrote in an email.
They'll do better with Bob Dutton of The Kansas City Star.

''I plan to vote for all three. I understand the steroid/PED questions surrounding each one, and I've wrestled with the implications,'' he wrote in an email.

''My view is these guys played and posted Hall of Fame-type numbers against the competition of their time. That will be my sole yardstick. If Major League Baseball took no action against a player during his career for alleged or suspected steroid/PED use, I'm not going to do so in assessing their career for the Hall of Fame,'' he said.

San Jose Mercury News columnist Mark Purdy will reserve judgment.

''At the beginning of all this, I made up my mind I had to adopt a consistent policy on the steroid social club. So, my policy has been, with the brilliance in the way they set up the Hall of Fame vote where these guys have a 15-year window, I'm not going to vote for any of those guys until I get the best picture possible of what was happening then,'' he wrote in an email.

''We learn a little bit more each year. We learned a lot during the Bonds trial. We learned a lot during the Clemens trial. I don't want to say I'm never going to vote for any of them. I want to wait until the end of their eligibility window and have my best idea of what was really going on,'' he said.

Clemens was acquitted this summer in federal court on six counts that he lied and obstructed Congress when he denied using performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds was found guilty in 2011 by a federal court jury on one count of obstruction of justice, ruling he gave an evasive answer in 2003 to a grand jury looking into the distribution of illegal steroids. Bonds is appealing the verdict.
McGwire is 10th on the career home run list with 583, but has never received even 24 percent in his six Hall tries. Big Mac has admitted to using steroids and human growth hormone.

Palmeiro is among only four players with 500 homers and 3,000 hits, yet has gotten a high of just 12.6 percent in his two years on the ballot. He drew a 10-day suspension in 2005 after a positive test for PEDs, and said the result was due to a vitamin vial given to him by teammate Miguel Tejada.

Biggio topped the 3,000-hit mark - which always has been considered an automatic credential for Cooperstown - and spent his entire career with the Houston Astros.

''Hopefully, the writers feel strongly that they liked what they saw, and we'll see what happens,'' Biggio said last week.

Schilling was 216-146 and won three World Series championships, including his ''bloody sock'' performance for the Boston Red Sox in 2004.
---
AP Baseball Writer Janie McCauley and AP Sports Writers Arnie Stapleton and Dave Skretta contributed to this report.

None of the alleged PED users make it.  I continue to say Biggio isn't worthy, but I think Piazza and Schilling are.  You shouldn't need to look at baseball-reference.com to see if someone is HoF worthy.

[The Minsky Moment]

Bonds- yes
Clemens - yes
Sosa - no
Biggio - no
Schilling - wait.  There are a bunch of second tier pitchers from that generation: Kevin Brown, Pettite, Mussina, Smoltz.  I'd like to get a clearer picture of where they all stack up before admitting.

Piazza and Bagwell make an interesting comp.  Roughly same batting ability; Bagwell stretched that performance out over more PA though.  Piazza was a terrible fielding catcher; Bagwell a good field-1B.  The trick is all the unknowns involved in evaluating the negative impact of Piazza's defense vs. the positive impact of getting his bat in the lineup from the C slot.  I think I would lean towards admitting both.

Rock-yes

Morris - no.  Solid innings eater with the good luck to pitch for strong teams and save his best performances for high profile WS games.  But walked too many guys and gave up too many gopher balls.