Holocaust survivors blast Nazi garb at protest

[Valmy]

That's right.  It's the ultra-Orthodox, such as these ones who are protesting, who don't do service.

Ok since we are on Israel 101 here

I do not understand the legal or theological basis for ultras not doing Military service.  I mean I see nothing in the OT that mentions that certain very relgious parts of the population should not do military service.  I mean the Macabees were even members of the Priestly class.

[Sheilbh]

I do not understand the legal or theological basis for ultras not doing Military service.  I mean I see nothing in the OT that mentions that certain very relgious parts of the population should not do military service.  I mean the Macabees were even members of the Priestly class.

I've no idea really.  I know they have religious study instead of military service.  But I don't know if that's a choice or they're religiously unable to be in the military.  My understanding is that another problem with 'secular' Israel (ie. everyone else) is that they tend to have high welfare bills because religious study doesn't pay.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think the legal justification is that the ultra-Orthodox are a politically necessary group for any Israeli government, so they get concessions and they don't get abolished.

[Malthus]

That's right.  It's the ultra-Orthodox, such as these ones who are protesting, who don't do service.

Ok since we are on Israel 101 here

I do not understand the legal or theological basis for ultras not doing Military service.  I mean I see nothing in the OT that mentions that certain very relgious parts of the population should not do military service.  I mean the Macabees were even members of the Priestly class.

Some of the ultra-orthodox are extreme anti-Zionists - they view the Israeli state as a blasphemy.

They don't do service for the same reason than most Arabs don't do service - dislike of the state. 

What differs is that, because of their political clout, they also extract all sorts of goodies from the state that they so dislike. Evidently hatred of the state doesn't preven them from voting.

I recently read a very good history of the city of Jerusalem - makes me sympathize with whoever has the thankless task of governing that city. It requires tolerating all sorts of really unpleasant minorities - of which these ultra-orthodox are merely one. What to make of violent monks who quite regularly riot with crowbars over ownership of square feet of the holy seplecre? Of ultra-orthodox Jews who spit on people wearing shorts - where the summer temp is in the oven? Or muslims who set up loudspeakers to broadcast calls to prayer at Spinal Tap volumes? If the authorities lay a finger on any of 'em, it is world news. 

[Valmy]

Some of the ultra-orthodox are extreme anti-Zionists - they view the Israeli state as a blasphemy.

Then why do they live there?  I figured the ultras who actually live in Zion were not those sorts of ultras.

[Valmy]

I recently read a very good history of the city of Jerusalem - makes me sympathize with whoever has the thankless task of governing that city. It requires tolerating all sorts of really unpleasant minorities - of which these ultra-orthodox are merely one. What to make of violent monks who quite regularly riot with crowbars over ownership of square feet of the holy seplecre? Of ultra-orthodox Jews who spit on people wearing shorts - where the summer temp is in the oven? Or muslims who set up loudspeakers to broadcast calls to prayer at Spinal Tap volumes? If the authorities lay a finger on any of 'em, it is world news. 

I love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie.  It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.

But yeah I would hate to try to be the voice of reason.

[Sheilbh]

I love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie.  It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.

They're so magnificently ecumenical.  My favourite is the wooden ladder that's been there for over 100 years because no-one can agree who put it up and so who has the right to take it down

[Malthus]

Some of the ultra-orthodox are extreme anti-Zionists - they view the Israeli state as a blasphemy.

Then why do they live there?  I figured the ultras who actually live in Zion were not those sorts of ultras.

For religious reasons - it is after all the Holy Land. That's why they hate the state - it isn't holy. 

The reason they regard Israel as blasphemy is that they believe such a state should only exist when the messiah turns up (his job after all is to create it). He's not here yet, so ipso facto, the state of Israel is a mockery and a sham. Sort of like calling your new state "Utopia".

[DGuller]

Who is to say that David Ben-Gurion wasn't that Messiah, or the guy who shot Count Bernadotte?

[Valmy]

For religious reasons - it is after all the Holy Land. That's why they hate the state - it isn't holy. 

The reason they regard Israel as blasphemy is that they believe such a state should only exist when the messiah turns up (his job after all is to create it). He's not here yet, so ipso facto, the state of Israel is a mockery and a sham. Sort of like calling your new state "Utopia".

So they regard any sort of state controlled by Jews in that area as blasphemy or is it just the name of it that causes the problem?  If they had named the country 'Judah' would they have been cool with it?

I also thought they thought you couldn't actually live in the Holy Land until the Messiah showed up.  But I guess the people who believe that are in Brooklyn and Budapest.

[Valmy]

They're so magnificently ecumenical.  My favourite is the wooden ladder that's been there for over 100 years because no-one can agree who put it up and so who has the right to take it down

Are there any books on this phenomenon?  It surely deserves one.

[Malthus]

I love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie.  It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.

But yeah I would hate to try to be the voice of reason.

True story: when I was in Jerusalem many years ago, I noticed this alarming group of beardy guys dressed all in black marching in a line enacting a wierd little ceremony: they were all carrying big black staves, about 6' long and very thick and heavy, with metal on the ends. They would walk forward, raise their staves in the air, and them bring them down so that the butt end of the stick would smack hard on the pavement, making an almighty BANG. Then they would walk a pace forward and do it again. They did not look friendly - people got out of their way with speed.

I asked a passer-by who these guys were. "Oh, they are the People of the Stick" was the reply. "Everyone makes way for them". Judging by their appearance, if you didn't, they banged that stick on your skull, which would crush it nicely. I've seen more pacific looking Hell's Angels.

People of the Stick? WTF? I've never heard of them before or since.

[I finally figured out who they must be reading that Jerusalem book - it mentions that, in the old days, Muslims outlawed the Christian ringing of bells, and so Christians took to using a stick banging on the pavement instead - and some, notably Armenians, still do this because it is now traditional. These must have been Armenian monks or suchlike. ] 

[Malthus]

They're so magnificently ecumenical.  My favourite is the wooden ladder that's been there for over 100 years because no-one can agree who put it up and so who has the right to take it down

Are there any books on this phenomenon?  It surely deserves one.

I recommend this recent book: http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Biography-Simon-Sebag-Montefiore/dp/0307266516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325617969&sr=8-1

Has lots on the topic.

[Malthus]

So they regard any sort of state controlled by Jews in that area as blasphemy or is it just the name of it that causes the problem?  If they had named the country 'Judah' would they have been cool with it?

I also thought they thought you couldn't actually live in the Holy Land until the Messiah showed up.  But I guess the people who believe that are in Brooklyn and Budapest.

I think the former. The whole project of Zionism they disapprove of - making of Judaism and ethno-nationalism like any other. To them, Jewish nationalism can only be a messianic concern. You should not have a Jewistan like any old Tom, Dick, France or Germany.

[Valmy]

I think the former. The whole project of Zionism they disapprove of - making of Judaism and ethno-nationalism like any other. To them, Jewish nationalism can only be a messianic concern. You should not have a Jewistan like any old Tom, Dick, France or Germany.

Oh really?  Like if there was a Khazaristan of Jewish Turks in Central Asia they would think it was blasphemy?

So much for my plan of declaring Long Island the new Israel.

[Malthus]

I think the former. The whole project of Zionism they disapprove of - making of Judaism and ethno-nationalism like any other. To them, Jewish nationalism can only be a messianic concern. You should not have a Jewistan like any old Tom, Dick, France or Germany.

Oh really?  Like if there was a Khazaristan of Jewish Turks in Central Asia they would think it was blasphemy?

So much for my plan of declaring Long Island the new Israel.

I think it is a combo. The Jewistan thing they disapprove of, but what really gets their goat is that it takes place in the Holy Land with Jerusalem as its capital.