GOP Primary Megathread!

[Razgovory]

Saying somebody is "not like us" is not overt racism.

No, but saying someone is bad because he's not like us is bigotry.

[DGuller]

51 percent of likely Republican primary voters think Obama was born abroad.  That's not minor.  http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2011/02/16/poll-birthers-now-make-up-a-majority-of-gop-primary-voters

Here's some polling form Republican strongholds.  Mississippi and Alabama.  http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/12/news/la-pn-poll-obamas-a-muslim-to-many-gop-voters-in-alabama-mississippi-20120312

Reporting from Washington — After years of battling false claims and viral emails alleging that he is a Muslim, President Obama hasn't gotten far among Republican voters in Alabama and Mississippi – about half still believe he is Muslim and about 1 in 4 believes his parents' interracial marriage should have been illegal, a new poll shows.

That doesn't make sense.  I was informed that the South is now a model of racial enlightenment, and has surged far ahead of the North when it comes to combatting racial prejudice.

[derspiess]

Saying somebody is "not like us" is not overt racism.

No, but saying someone is bad because he's not like us is bigotry.

Only in a very bland sense.  I may be "bigoted" against someone who has deeply-held leftwing views (and therefore not like me)-- just the same as someone on the left might be bigoted against me because I'm a rightwinger.

I think you guys are imagining almost all of the racial element that motivates the anti-Obama crowd.  If you want something more palpable to criticize, go after the "he's a communist" hyperbole.

[Razgovory]

What about saying "I don't like him because he's a Muslim".  Would that count as bigoted in your book?

[Syt]

So, besides racism (or not), what's the factual beef with Obama from Conservatives? What makes him worse than Bush?

Mind you, I wasn't a friend of W, but neither did I endorse ZOMGBUSHITLER!

[Razgovory]

So, besides racism (or not), what's the factual beef with Obama from Conservatives? What makes him worse than Bush?

Mind you, I wasn't a friend of W, but neither did I endorse ZOMGBUSHITLER!

Well half believe he's a Muslim and they don't like Muslims.  Also 1/4 Republicans in Mississippi don't approve of him being born due to the interacial thing.  That's a major stumbling block to acceptance.

[Eddie Teach]

So, besides racism (or not), what's the factual beef with Obama from Conservatives? What makes him worse than Bush?

Besides his policies being further to the left?

[Razgovory]

So, besides racism (or not), what's the factual beef with Obama from Conservatives? What makes him worse than Bush?

Besides his policies being further to the left?

Which ones?  His Healthcare plan was based on one enacted by a Republican.  The stimulus thing isn't anything new.  We have Stimulus stuff all the time.  His policy on immigration doesn't differ much from Bush's.  It can't be the Spending as the over spending was rampant under Bush and they didn't have a problem with it then.  Hell, Obama cut most people's taxes.

[Sheilbh]

If you evidence that this message exists and is meaningful is so weak that you have to characterize it as "subliminal" then I suspect the existence of said message is more a figment of your imagination than anything else.

In other words, it might be real, but it probably is in fact pretty damn minor.

Not necessarily.  It's just dog whistle politics.  In Australia the Howard government passed lots of anti-immigration legislation that was popular.  In doing so they used language and seemed to be appealing for racist votes.  This caused a lot of criticism because very few people like overt racism.  But the Howard government wanted the votes of racists.

Lynton Crosby who was his chief political advisor worked on what he dog whistle phrases.  They're words and phrases that people who are fundamentally bigoted pick up on and get the idea, rightly or wrongly, that that candidate's 'one of us'.  But they're plausibly deniable.  It can be used in all types of bigotry too.  The success of political correctness is that we generally no longer tolerate overt bigotry, but it still exists and a smart politician will more than likely try to appeal to it.

The Tories hired Lynton Crosby for the 2005 campaign.  His dog whistle was a bit too strong in British politics and they came up with the slogan 'are you thinking what we're thinking?'

Having said all that I don't know the extent it's a problem with Obama.  But it's incorrect to say that appeals to bigots are weak and meaningless just because they're subliminal.

[Eddie Teach]

Which ones?  His Healthcare plan was based on one enacted by a Republican.  The stimulus thing isn't anything new.  We have Stimulus stuff all the time.  His policy on immigration doesn't differ much from Bush's.  It can't be the Spending as the over spending was rampant under Bush and they didn't have a problem with it then.  Hell, Obama cut most people's taxes.

Bush wasn't looking for a healthcare plan and Obama's stimulus went further than his. Also, Bush appointed Alito and Roberts while Obama appointed Kagan and Sotomayor. Throw in minor differences in posture in foreign policy, rhetoric about social issues, etc... There's plenty of room to prefer one or the other.

[Razgovory]

Bush did pass some healthcare reform.  Remember?  Medicare part D or whatever it was called.  Back in 2008 Romney's Healthcare plan was a feather in his cap.  Now it's an albatross.  McCain had a healthcare plan as well.  And as CdM has shown us, most people don't even know who Roberts is.

[derspiess]

What about saying "I don't like him because he's a Muslim".  Would that count as bigoted in your book?

Possibly, but it's more confused/misinformed than anything.

[garbon]

What about saying "I don't like him because he's a Muslim".  Would that count as bigoted in your book?

Possibly, but it's more confused/misinformed than anything.

In what possible way could that be meant that wasn't bigoted?

[Berkut]

If you evidence that this message exists and is meaningful is so weak that you have to characterize it as "subliminal" then I suspect the existence of said message is more a figment of your imagination than anything else.

In other words, it might be real, but it probably is in fact pretty damn minor.

Not necessarily.  It's just dog whistle politics.  In Australia the Howard government passed lots of anti-immigration legislation that was popular.  In doing so they used language and seemed to be appealing for racist votes.  This caused a lot of criticism because very few people like overt racism.  But the Howard government wanted the votes of racists.

Lynton Crosby who was his chief political advisor worked on what he dog whistle phrases.  They're words and phrases that people who are fundamentally bigoted pick up on and get the idea, rightly or wrongly, that that candidate's 'one of us'.  But they're plausibly deniable.  It can be used in all types of bigotry too.  The success of political correctness is that we generally no longer tolerate overt bigotry, but it still exists and a smart politician will more than likely try to appeal to it.

The Tories hired Lynton Crosby for the 2005 campaign.  His dog whistle was a bit too strong in British politics and they came up with the slogan 'are you thinking what we're thinking?'

Having said all that I don't know the extent it's a problem with Obama.  But it's incorrect to say that appeals to bigots are weak and meaningless just because they're subliminal.

You've said this before - but the problem with this line of argument is that you are only making an arguing that it is possible to be racist without it being obvious.

You haven't established that it is actually happening, no have you provided us what these "dog whistle" statements are in this case that you think are the double secret code for "We hate him because he is black!"

Rather the issue came up because there are people who keep trying to dismiss any criticism of Obama with "Oh, you just hate him BECAUSE RACIST ZOMG!".

Yes, I get that it is possible to use plausibly deniable racist comments to appeal to racists. The problem here is not that though, nor is that even the topic of the debate.

Seedy and Zoupa response to any criticims of Obama with an accusation of racism, over and over again.

DG claims that this is legitimate, not because he has shown that the actual criticism in question is in fact racist, but because he imagines there to be racism, and explains his lack of actual evidence by saying that the evidence is "subliminal" - in other words, he has created a hypothesis, demanding that we accept it as true, while also claiming that his hypothesis is definitionally (is that a word?) untestable.

So no - the fact that some Brits were a bunch of racists once and politicians once appeals to racists doesn't really add anything - we know that there have been politicians appealing to race in the past both overtly and less overtly. But that doesn't mean it is happening now, nor does it refute the observation that people constantly running around bringing up Obama's race probably don't really have to go so far from home to find some racism.

[grumbler]

What about saying "I don't like him because he's a Muslim".  Would that count as bigoted in your book?

Possibly, but it's more confused/misinformed than anything.

In what possible way could that be meant that wasn't bigoted?

I don't think this is a proper use of the term bigoted, for one.

Definition of BIGOT
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed adjective