GOP Primary Megathread!

[CountDeMoney]

I guess that means I'm bigoted against the wealthy and mouth-breathing citizens of Dumbfuckistan that vote GOP.

[Sheilbh]

You've said this before - but the problem with this line of argument is that you are only making an arguing that it is possible to be racist without it being obvious.

No.  I'm saying that politicians can play for bigots' votes without saying anything explicitly bigoted.

You haven't established that it is actually happening, no have you provided us what these "dog whistle" statements are in this case that you think are the double secret code for "We hate him because he is black!"

That's because I wasn't trying to.  I actually said I don't know the extent this is the case with Obama.

Off the top of my head I think Gingrich has come closest.

Yes, I get that it is possible to use plausibly deniable racist comments to appeal to racists. The problem here is not that though, nor is that even the topic of the debate.

You said that if it was subliminal chances are it was a figment of someone's imagination.  That's not the case.  There are political consultants who sell their experience in pitching 'subliminal' messages to bigoted voters as to all other voters.  So it does exist and it's quite expensive.

[Berkut]

You've said this before - but the problem with this line of argument is that you are only making an arguing that

Yes, I get that it is possible to use plausibly deniable racist comments to appeal to racists. The problem here is not that though, nor is that even the topic of the debate.

You said that if it was subliminal chances are it was a figment of someone's imagination.  That's not the case.  There are political consultants who sell their experience in pitching 'subliminal' messages to bigoted voters as to all other voters.  So it does exist and it's quite expensive.

Uggh, you are not listening - or you are, and hence the edit job to cut out the parts of my post that deal with exactly this.

If in fact the best evidence you can come up with that this is happening is to claim that it is happening, and the reason you cannot provide any actual evidence is that it is "subliminal" (which is code for "double secret unevidenced evidence) then in fact it is rather likely that it is in your imagination.

Yes, it is *possible* that there really are these secret expensive operatives running around planting subliminal messages of racism, but it isn't likely, especially since nobody has even provided an example of these supposed "dog whistle" phrases that the racists in us will understand. It is apparently so secret, that even with the dog whistle detection active, we can't even hear it - one has to suspect that anything so deeply subliminal is probably not being picked up by the dogs either.

Except Zoupa, Seeday, a Dgullible, of course.

[DGuller]

Except Zoupa, Seeday, a Dgullible, of course.

How mature.

[garbon]

Except Zoupa, Seeday, a Dgullible, of course.

How mature.

Indeed. I prefer D4Gully.

[CountDeMoney]

"Seeday".  Sounds like one of Saddam's kids. 

[derspiess]

"Seeday".  Sounds like one of Saddam's kids. 

Or maybe how one of your townsfolk would call you on the street if he knew you by your Languish nickname.

[Razgovory]

Except Zoupa, Seeday, a Dgullible, of course.

How mature.

Well we have explained this to Berkut several times before, it just doesn't take.  Hell, I've demonstrated that Republican strategists have used these dog whistle politics to court racist voters.  I quoted them in saying that they did that.  Shelf is wrong in saying it's Subliminal.  That's not the right word.  Politicians use phrases like "He has a Kenyan mindset" or "He's a Welfare thug" to tell racist voters "I'm with you on this.  I feel the same way you do on race".  Berkut doesn't want it to be true so he doesn't listen.

[Razgovory]

What about saying "I don't like him because he's a Muslim".  Would that count as bigoted in your book?

Possibly, but it's more confused/misinformed than anything.

I think you missed the point.  Saying "I hate muslims" is an example of bigotry.  It is a more socially acceptable bigotry then saying "I hate black people", and so it serves as a convenient stand in.  If a person says "I hate Jews, or I hate white people" he is a bigot.  Since the unsaid assumption with calling Obama a Muslim is that being a Muslim is bad, then those people are in fact bigots.

[derspiess]

I think you missed the point.  Saying "I hate muslims" is an example of bigotry.  It is a more socially acceptable bigotry then saying "I hate black people", and so it serves as a convenient stand in.  If a person says "I hate Jews, or I hate white people" he is a bigot.  Since the unsaid assumption with calling Obama a Muslim is that being a Muslim is bad, then those people are in fact bigots.

Fine, but in Obama's case it's more of an issue that the confused ignoramuses think he's Muslim than the fact that they may hate Muslims.

[derspiess]

Except Zoupa, Seeday, a Dgullible, of course.

How mature.

Well we have explained this to Berkut several times before, it just doesn't take.  Hell, I've demonstrated that Republican strategists have used these dog whistle politics to court racist voters.  I quoted them in saying that they did that.  Shelf is wrong in saying it's Subliminal.  That's not the right word.  Politicians use phrases like "He has a Kenyan mindset" or "He's a Welfare thug" to tell racist voters "I'm with you on this.  I feel the same way you do on race".  Berkut doesn't want it to be true so he doesn't listen.

How about "Food Stamp President".  Is that one of them?

[Sheilbh]

Uggh, you are not listening - or you are, and hence the edit job to cut out the parts of my post that deal with exactly this.

  The edit job was because I'd only written my first sentence and 'That's because I wasn't trying to' when I pressed post.

If in fact the best evidence you can come up with that this is happening is to claim that it is happening, and the reason you cannot provide any actual evidence is that it is "subliminal" (which is code for "double secret unevidenced evidence) then in fact it is rather likely that it is in your imagination.

Yes, it is *possible* that there really are these secret expensive operatives running around planting subliminal messages of racism, but it isn't likely, especially since nobody has even provided an example of these supposed "dog whistle" phrases that the racists in us will understand. It is apparently so secret, that even with the dog whistle detection active, we can't even hear it - one has to suspect that anything so deeply subliminal is probably not being picked up by the dogs either.

That's why it's a successful strategy if pulled off well.

But I did name one famous consultant.  Lynton Crosby was Howard's campaign manager and is well known as the guy who led the way with dog-whistling.  It's worth saying it's not just a way of appealing to bigotry.  I think Crosby used it to attract pro-life votes in Australia too.  As the name indicates it's something the rest of the electorate won't necessarily notice but will attract the voters it's designed to his.  It's a message that if you said in a normal way would possibly repel more voters than it would attract but if said indirectly enough excites its target without the mainstream of voters noticing.

In terms of race it's not too far off what Lee Atwater said:
'You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."'
I disagree that it's getting rid of the racial problem but as a way of using language I think that's accurate.  But I think the point Jeffrey Goldberg makes (article below) is true.  This already looks like a more racially infused campaign than 2008.  In large part I think that's because of the decency of McCain, but equally, probably, the crudeness of Gingrich who I think spends a lot of time dog-whistling.

How about "Food Stamp President".  Is that one of them?

I think Newt is the worst.  His attacks on an 'anti-colonial Kenyan' mindset and on Obama as a 'food stamp President' are racially loaded.

I think this Jeffrey Goldberg article on it is pretty good:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/how-to-listen-for-racism-on-the-campaign-trail-jeffrey-goldberg.html

[CountDeMoney]

Lulz, Mittens holds a rally today criticizing Obama's economic policies on manufacturing in front of a gypsum factory that was closed during the Bush Administration. 

[Razgovory]

I think you missed the point.  Saying "I hate muslims" is an example of bigotry.  It is a more socially acceptable bigotry then saying "I hate black people", and so it serves as a convenient stand in.  If a person says "I hate Jews, or I hate white people" he is a bigot.  Since the unsaid assumption with calling Obama a Muslim is that being a Muslim is bad, then those people are in fact bigots.

Fine, but in Obama's case it's more of an issue that the confused ignoramuses think he's Muslim than the fact that they may hate Muslims.

I think it's fair to say they don't like Muslims.  But if you want to think that over half the GOP are "confused ignoramuses", that's fine.  I feel the same way.  I suppose a fair question is why so many GOP opinion makers and politicians actively cultivate this confused state?

[CountDeMoney]

Yes, it is *possible* that there really are these secret expensive operatives running around planting subliminal messages of racism, but it isn't likely, especially since nobody has even provided an example of these supposed "dog whistle" phrases that the racists in us will understand. It is apparently so secret, that even with the dog whistle detection active, we can't even hear it - one has to suspect that anything so deeply subliminal is probably not being picked up by the dogs either.

Except Zoupa, Seeday, a Dgullible, of course.

Yes, we're just seeing things that aren't there. 

Bachmann: Obama 'waving a tar baby in the air' on gas prices
By Devin Henry | 04:50 pm

WASHINGTON — President Obama is "waving a tar baby over his head" by blaming oil speculators for the rising price of gasoline, Rep. Michele Bachmann said in an interview released Wednesday.

Bachmann was discussing oil prices with The Shark Tank, a conservative news website from Florida. She said Obama was a "complete and utter fraud" for blaming oil speculators in part for the rising cost of gas when he hasn't supported policies that Republicans say could help bring prices down.

"This is just about waving a tar baby in the air and saying that something else is a problem," Bachmann said, adding later: "The president is a complete and utter fraud and a hypocrite on this issue, with all due respect to the president."

The "tar baby" remark is a reference to a doll made of tar used to trap Br'er Rabbit in an Uncle Remus folktale, and has come to represent a sticky situation, which was what Bachmann was trying to say, spokeswoman Becky Rogness said.

But the term has negative racial connotations, as well. Politico has a recap of politicians who have used the phrase (and, in some cases, who have subsequently apologized for it), including Mitt Romney, John McCain, John Kerry and, most recently, Republican Rep. Doug Lamborn, who said associating with Obama was like "touching a tar baby and you get it, you're stuck, and you're a part of the problem now and you can't get away."

Rogness said Bachmann's remark was meant to be innocuous.

"The Congresswoman values all human life – regardless of race, color or creed," she said in an email. "If you listen to the interview, Rep. Bachmann was making a point about the President's poor understanding of oil prices, which has nothing to do with race. The President doesn't understand the oil market and, hence, has gotten himself into a sticky situation."