GOP Primary Megathread!

[Razgovory]

Seems to me the author of Tamas' articles is trying to draw a connection between Paul's gold standard plank and the OWS abolish the Fed slogan, as well as Paul's neo-isolationism and the peacenik abolish the military position.

Well there's obviously a link.  I think the article's got a lot of truth to it. 

I'd add that in addition to opposing the drug war, war in general, opposition to the bank bailouts and the Fed, that Paul is probably the most civil libertarian candidate around.  Far moreso than Obama and I've always said civil libertarians are the one group who should be rightly outraged at Obama's betrayal.  Paul stands for quite a lot that the left - as opposed to just centre-left - has long argued for, it's no coincidence that he's often co-sponsored bills with Bernie Sanders - I think it's simply infuriating for them that he's coming at it from a different perspective while they're trying to defend their President for a series of policies they'd decimate Bush for.

What are you talking about?

[Sheilbh]

What are you talking about?

What's your confusion?

[alfred russel]

Rough intrade odds to win the caucuses:

Romney: 49%
Gingrich: 1%
Santorum: 21%
Paul: 30%

No one else really registers.

[Admiral Yi]

Well there's obviously a link.  I think the article's got a lot of truth to it. 

The amount of truth in it couldn't fill a thimble.

Paul wants a return to the gold standard because he believes fiat money leads to inflation, bubbles, and crashes.  OWS wants to abolish the Fed because Fine Arts and Gender Studies majors don't have a clue about monetary policy and have spun up a narrative that the Fed exists to make the rich richer.

Paul wants to shrink the military and retreat from overseas commitments because he thinks the US is overstetched.  Peaceniks want to shrink the military and retreat from overseas commitments because they think the US is the sole source of evil in the world and that all conflicts (those not started by the US) can be resolved by travelling puppet shows and aggressive tree planting.

[Sheilbh]

The connection is that they want the same policies on things like the bank bailouts, the Fed, the war, the war on drugs and civil liberties.  I don't see how their different analyses invalidates their identical results.

Also I think you really need to look up some of what Paul's said on foreign policy - because that is wildly incomplete.  He's far more into the US causing blowback and being a negative force than you think.

[Admiral Yi]

The connection is that they want the same policies on things like the bank bailouts, the Fed, the war, the war on drugs and civil liberties.  I don't see how their different analyses invalidates their identical results.

They most definitely don't want the same policy on the Fed.  The last thing in the world the OWS types want is a gold standard that slams the brakes on money supply, jacks up interest rates on student loans and credit cards, transfers wealth from debtors to creditors, and instantly makes the US national debt unsustainable.

[grumbler]

Also I think you really need to look up some of what Paul's said on foreign policy - because that is wildly incomplete.  He's far more into the US causing blowback and being a negative force than you think.

What would be the fun of that?  Yi's comments are obviously not intended to be taken seriously, and more than, say, Jon Stewart's when he also does the hilariously over-the-top characterizations.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Most political humor sucks because of that. It is so often smug and unsubtle that it can appeal only to ideologues who agree with the jokester's views.

[Sheilbh]

They most definitely don't want the same policy on the Fed.  The last thing in the world the OWS types want is a gold standard that slams the brakes on money supply, jacks up interest rates on student loans and credit cards, transfers wealth from debtors to creditors, and instantly makes the US national debt unsustainable.

They both want to abolish the Fed - though I'm uncomfortable talking about OWS types because I don't think they're clear-cut enough for that.  My guess would be that a significant proportion of 'OWS types' would support a return to the gold standard, if not most of them.

I think you underestimate how much that idea's spread.  It's replaced truthers entirely and all other stoned conspiracy theories.

Edit:  Actually thinking about it my landlord was spouting on about the gold standard when he camed round to re-do the silicone sealing.

What would be the fun of that?  Yi's comments are obviously not intended to be taken seriously, and more than, say, Jon Stewart's when he also does the hilariously over-the-top characterizations.

True, but my objection's with his rather under-stated characterisation of Paul's policies.

[mongers]

My experience of the occupy movement so far is that there's not just a coincidence between the Ron Paul stuff and their agenda, but that actually the one in part informs the other. Ron Paul and other libertarian thinkers, politicans and propagandist are rather popular amongst the two groups I've had dealings with.

Of course I'm talking only of my experiences over here, which seems different to what Yi has characterised as a student led progressive movement in the USA.
From what I've seen here, it broadly breaked down into three groups,each roughly a third in size, one group is the homeless and the very marginalised, as you'd expect from these protests taking place in urban areas, another the people in the more insecure, badly paid jobs who're already really struggling to make ends meet due to commodity price rises and general inflation and the rest are a well intentioned cross section of the middle and above classes who want to see a different, more just or have had enough of the 'current system'.

[mongers]

....

They both want to abolish the Fed - though I'm uncomfortable talking about OWS types because I don't think they're clear-cut enough for that.  My guess would be that a significant proportion of 'OWS types' would support a return to the gold standard, if not most of them.

I think you underestimate how much that idea's spread.  It's replaced truthers entirely and all other stoned conspiracy theories.
.....

Yes this is my experience as well, I guess Shelf was a struck as I was at how unexpectedly different it was to what one expected, it certainly isn't the uniformly 'progressive' movement I was expecting.

And the whole issue about how much traction conspiracies theories have on them is rather weird and something I haven't yet got my head around.

[Admiral Yi]

I think you underestimate how much that idea's spread.  It's replaced truthers entirely and all other stoned conspiracy theories.

The penetration of the idea is irrelevant for our discussion.  What does matter is the results the various parties think they will achieve through their protest slogan.  Occupy thinks that "abolishing the Fed" will somehow alleviate their own loan burdens and magically reduce income inequality.  It will do the exact opposite.  So IF Ron Paul were to somehow become president and IF he were to somehow get legislation passed on the Fed, the connection between the progressive left and Ron Paul Libertarians on this particular issue would disappear like water vapor.  There's only a connection as long as it remains in the realm of protest slogan.

[mongers]

I think you underestimate how much that idea's spread.  It's replaced truthers entirely and all other stoned conspiracy theories.

The penetration of the idea is irrelevant for our discussion.  What does matter is the results the various parties think they will achieve through their protest slogan.  Occupy thinks that "abolishing the Fed" will somehow alleviate their own loan burdens and magically reduce income inequality.  It will do the exact opposite.  So IF Ron Paul were to somehow become president and IF he were to somehow get legislation passed on the Fed, the connection between the progressive left and Ron Paul Libertarians on this particular issue would disappear like water vapor.  There's only a connection as long as it remains in the realm of protest slogan.

I think you analysis fails because one of it's assumptions is false, by and large, in my experience they're not the 'progressive left'.

[Admiral Yi]

It's not an assumption mongers, it's a label.  Change it to whatever you'd like.

[mongers]

It's not an assumption mongers, it's a label.  Change it to whatever you'd like.

But it's the wrong label, you're assuming they're the two groups are poles apart, I'm saying they're not. 

A for instance, a lot of the occupy people are very keen on reciting the stuff about the wrongness of fiat currency and most seem to take it as an article of faith that fractional reserve banking is a great evil. I really can't hear any difference between what they say and the Ron Paul people advocate.