B.N. - US Navy Sinks Submarine Outside Key Naval Base.

[Eddie Teach]

Thread of infamy.

He's a day early. Thread is a sneak attack.

[Admiral Yi]

A date which will live in Infamy! Great speech by President Roosevelt.

yeah, except of course, can you really be shockered that a country under oil embargo from you attacks you?

We took offense that they declared war after they attacked.

[Tamas]

A date which will live in Infamy! Great speech by President Roosevelt.

yeah, except of course, can you really be shockered that a country under oil embargo from you attacks you?

We took offense that they declared war after they attacked.

"-in a fair fight I would have won!
"-then I would have been a fool to fight fairly"

or something like that.
The Japs were fascist scumbags, and I respect those who died fighting them. But the whole "omg teh scandal" angle is blown out of proportion. It was necessarily blown out of proportion back then to mobilize the nation, but nowadays there is no need for it.

[Admiral Yi]

"-in a fair fight I would have won!
"-then I would have been a fool to fight fairly"

or something like that.
The Japs were fascist scumbags, and I respect those who died fighting them. But the whole "omg teh scandal" angle is blown out of proportion. It was necessarily blown out of proportion back then to mobilize the nation, but nowadays there is no need for it.

We won.

[Tamas]

"-in a fair fight I would have won!
"-then I would have been a fool to fight fairly"

or something like that.
The Japs were fascist scumbags, and I respect those who died fighting them. But the whole "omg teh scandal" angle is blown out of proportion. It was necessarily blown out of proportion back then to mobilize the nation, but nowadays there is no need for it.

We won.

that quote was to point out the ridicoulity of expecting a formal DoW from Japan prior to the initial strike. Or from anyone. War is not a sport.

[Admiral Yi]

that quote was to point out the ridicoulity of expecting a formal DoW from Japan prior to the initial strike. Or from anyone. War is not a sport.

Geneva Convention, also ridiculous?

[Tamas]

that quote was to point out the ridicoulity of expecting a formal DoW from Japan prior to the initial strike. Or from anyone. War is not a sport.

Geneva Convention, also ridiculous?

Look, I am viewing this from the point that a war between nations is a very lethal (haha) affair for your entire nation. It was since WW1 at least. If a leadership commits to it, it is OBLIGED to it's people to wage it in the most effective way possible, to minize it's own people's suffering.

So, giving proper warning to the future enemy so it can prepare it's defenses, drastically raising friendly casualities in the initial operations compared to a surprise attack, is borderline treason (starting the war can also be considered that, but let's assume it is fully justified from that country's point of view).

Other Geneva Convention stuff like mutual well-treating of PoWs and stuff is benefical for your own people so it's okay.

[KRonn]

A date which will live in Infamy! Great speech by President Roosevelt.

yeah, except of course, can you really be shockered that a country under oil embargo from you attacks you?

Part of the reason for the embargo was Japan's war on China. I don't think the US was the only one doing similar. And if the US didn't respond to Japanese aggression then the US would be criticized for not doing so.

[CountDeMoney]

Tamas Pearl Harbors Microsoft with every burned copy of Windows 7.

[Tamas]

A date which will live in Infamy! Great speech by President Roosevelt.

yeah, except of course, can you really be shockered that a country under oil embargo from you attacks you?

Part of the reason for the embargo was Japan's war on China. I don't think the US was the only one doing similar. And if the US didn't respond to Japanese aggression then the US would be criticized for not doing so.

They were perfectly right to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that a Japanese call on their raise was well in the list of possibilities.
I think they did know that of course. But they had to have Japan clearly strike first to get the public on the side of their (correct and rational) leaning toward war.

[KRonn]

They were perfectly right to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that a Japanese call on their raise was well in the list of possibilities.
I think they did know that of course. But they had to have Japan clearly strike first to get the public on the side of their (correct and rational) leaning toward war.

Yes,  the US govt and military had realized the strong possibility of war with Japan for quite a while before Pearl Harbor and had been taking measures to strengthen the US military position in the Pacific and Philippines.

[Tamas]

They were perfectly right to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that a Japanese call on their raise was well in the list of possibilities.
I think they did know that of course. But they had to have Japan clearly strike first to get the public on the side of their (correct and rational) leaning toward war.

Yes,  the US govt and military had realized the strong possibility of war with Japan for quite a while before Pearl Harbor and had been taking measures to strengthen the US military position in the Pacific and Philippines.

Yes, hence my point that we shouldn't stick to the "omg shocking sneak attack!" rhetoric THAT much nowadays, when it is no longer a propaganda necessity.

[KRonn]

The Japanese were bent on conquest and subjugation, sneak attack or not, so they brought a lot of problem onto themselves. It was an attack that started a war, and that is a big deal whether sneak attack or not, to be remembered.  But sure, it can easily be argued that Japan did what was best from the military point of view. However it was a strategic blunder which galvanized the US in a way that couldn't have harmed Japan's war effort more.  At the time the idea of the sneak attack really angered people, even though there was the possibility of war.  The attack also didn't do nearly the damage to the Pacific fleet that it could have repair docks and other facilities been destroyed. Not to mention the US carriers not being there, a factor that would loom large in the next few months, culminating with the US huge victory at Midway.

[alfred russel]

They were perfectly right to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that a Japanese call on their raise was well in the list of possibilities.
I think they did know that of course. But they had to have Japan clearly strike first to get the public on the side of their (correct and rational) leaning toward war.

Yes,  the US govt and military had realized the strong possibility of war with Japan for quite a while before Pearl Harbor and had been taking measures to strengthen the US military position in the Pacific and Philippines.

Yes, hence my point that we shouldn't stick to the "omg shocking sneak attack!" rhetoric THAT much nowadays, when it is no longer a propaganda necessity.

I don't think it was propaganda that led to the outrage. It was the perception that we are peacably sitting around at our naval base and Japan throws a haymaker for no reason and without warning. Sure there was an oil embargo, but I doubt most Americans knew that, most of the ones that did probably didn't care, and the only reason there was an oil embargo was because the Japanese were intent on murdering and raping their way through Asia.

[Razgovory]

that quote was to point out the ridicoulity of expecting a formal DoW from Japan prior to the initial strike. Or from anyone. War is not a sport.

Geneva Convention, also ridiculous?

Look, I am viewing this from the point that a war between nations is a very lethal (haha) affair for your entire nation. It was since WW1 at least. If a leadership commits to it, it is OBLIGED to it's people to wage it in the most effective way possible, to minize it's own people's suffering.

So, giving proper warning to the future enemy so it can prepare it's defenses, drastically raising friendly casualities in the initial operations compared to a surprise attack, is borderline treason (starting the war can also be considered that, but let's assume it is fully justified from that country's point of view).

Other Geneva Convention stuff like mutual well-treating of PoWs and stuff is benefical for your own people so it's okay.

Okay, so you're good with the Soviets curb stomping Hungary in '56 due to it being a past and future enemy?