Roman Succession

[Ideologue]

Side point: why 1453 as the beginning of the Ottoman Empire?  Sure, that's the fall of Constantinople, but the Ottomans existed well in advance of that, and the Byzantines, for all intents and purposes, didn't.

[Malthus]

Still the collapse, as it were, of their empire hardly makes them a great choice.

Care to mention a contender that has lasted longer?

I think the point was that they there aren't really any great contenders.  That said - I'd think going from The Empire where the sun never sets to a size of somewhere around Kansas (I think) is pretty obvious.

Even if you are focused on the colonies, England has had a long run - decolonization only became an accomplished fact after WW2.

[Zanza]

Side point: why 1453 as the beginning of the Ottoman Empire?  Sure, that's the fall of Constantinople, but the Ottomans existed well in advance of that, and the Byzantines, for all intents and purposes, didn't.

Well, pick 1299 or whatever then. Doesn't change the fact that the Ottoman Empire lasted for several centuries.

[Ideologue]

Fair enough.

[Jacob]

The Japanese were a civilizing influence.

Are you trying to be a junior Neil?

[Ideologue]

The Japanese were a civilizing influence.

Are you trying to be a junior Neil?

I was kidding.

[The Brain]

Racist??

WTF Ide what's up with your constant editing BS? Fuck man.

[Razgovory]

Colonial conflicts don't enter into the picture. If having a colonial conflict affected stability, where would that leave Rome? I doubt they went a decade without one in their entire history. 

The issue here is internal stability. Britian has an impressively long run of it.

I don't think Ireland was considered a colony.  It was an integral part of the UK same as Scotland and Wales.  It just happened to be on a different island.

[Ideologue]

Racist??

WTF Ide what's up with your constant editing BS? Fuck man.

Apple-ogies for ze inconwenience.

[The Brain]

Racist??

WTF Ide what's up with your constant editing BS? Fuck man.

Apple-ogies for ze inconwenience.

You were the sheep??

[alfred russel]

As Malthus falls victim to classic languish after making a general statement about a period of centuries and then having everyone find counterexamples, I would agree that the core territory of the UK was relatively stable from the 17th century forward.

More broadly, any empire faces a problem of how to integrate new territory. The Romans eventually granted the citizens of the new territory citizenship. The effect was a strong Roman identity, but the large size of the empire meant that there needed to be separate power bases along the frontiers that could be turned inwards during a power struggle. The result was internal instability in a period of succession.

The colonial empires restricted rights to the original core territory. This helped keep power consolidated and promoted the peaceful transfer of power, but also created disaffection in the outer territories leading to its own problems.

[Razgovory]

It occurs to me that it's possible there were lots of minor tribal rebellions that were lost to history.  Perhaps even major ones.  Our knowledge of Roman history is fairly incomplete.

[Malthus]

As Malthus falls victim to classic languish after making a general statement about a period of centuries and then having everyone find counterexamples, I would agree that the core territory of the UK was relatively stable from the 17th century forward.

More broadly, any empire faces a problem of how to integrate new territory. The Romans eventually granted the citizens of the new territory citizenship. The effect was a strong Roman identity, but the large size of the empire meant that there needed to be separate power bases along the frontiers that could be turned inwards during a power struggle. The result was internal instability in a period of succession.

The colonial empires restricted rights to the original core territory. This helped keep power consolidated and promoted the peaceful transfer of power, but also created disaffection in the outer territories leading to its own problems.

I'd argue that the problems of Rome went far deeper than the obvious difficulties in policing their huge territories - fact is that they never worked out any particular system of succession, guaranteeing that generals would fight it out regularly for the throne. This would have been true even if they kept Roman citizenship the preserve of Romans (or even simply Italians). Peaceful succession was not always the norm for Rome ...   

As for the usual Languish nitpicking, I am unfussed. There is no period in the history of any empire that would do any better.

[garbon]

As for the usual Languish nitpicking, I am unfussed. There is no period in the history of any empire that would do any better.

I apologize if there was confusion there. I wasn't arguing against that as the discussion had been about states that "exist" today. While the UK had a good run, I think it is hard to say that it is currently faring well as an empire.

[Valmy]

I'd argue that the problems of Rome went far deeper than the obvious difficulties in policing their huge territories - fact is that they never worked out any particular system of succession, guaranteeing that generals would fight it out regularly for the throne. This would have been true even if they kept Roman citizenship the preserve of Romans (or even simply Italians). Peaceful succession was not always the norm for Rome ...

Well the primary basis for legitimacy was the army and its support (there was also the Senate but the Senate trying to do it without the army generally led to disaster while the army could safely ignore the civilians).  That was so very basic and fundamental to the Empire it is sort of hard to wrap your head around it not being that way. 

It could have worked if the Generals could have all gotten together at a meeting following the death of each Emperor and elected the new one, like a death of a Pope or something.  But who would be commanding the armies while they did this or who would be ruling the Empire while this meeting was being organized and carried out?