Literacy in the Roman Empire

[Queequeg]

You guys are forgetting that the main use of literacy aside from religion is to do accounting, basically so that nobles can extract their share from the peasants, higer nobles from lower, and the king from everyone; and that this task is more complex and not simpler in cash-poor economies.

When calculating how many cows someone owes me do I carry the remainder with chickens or pigs? 

Actually, it's a pretty well respected theory in anthropology that civilization arises out of the need to organize irrigation and cultivation.  Literacy would seem to be the next step from that.

[The Brain]

In the absence of any good estimation of Roman literacy based on hard evidence from their time I think that your best bet may be to simply compare the general level of organization to later eras, find an era that seems to match, and look at the literacy at this later date (where much more evidence is available). I would guess that as a first approximation this is as good as it gets.

After thinking about this for 30 seconds my impression is that Western Europe reached Roman levels of societal organization very roughly around 1700. Of course you can also look at possible smaller areas that reached the level earlier and so on, the more data points the merrier. Especially interesting to compare eras before and after printing.

[Threviel]

In the absence of any good estimation of Roman literacy based on hard evidence from their time I think that your best bet may be to simply compare the general level of organization to later eras, find an era that seems to match, and look at the literacy at this later date (where much more evidence is available). I would guess that as a first approximation this is as good as it gets.

After thinking about this for 30 seconds my impression is that Western Europe reached Roman levels of societal organization very roughly around 1700. Of course you can also look at possible smaller areas that reached the level earlier and so on, the more data points the merrier. Especially interesting to compare eras before and after printing.

I would have guessed around 1300 also, before the black death.

[DontSayBanana]

You guys are forgetting that the main use of literacy aside from religion is to do accounting, basically so that nobles can extract their share from the peasants, higer nobles from lower, and the king from everyone; and that this task is more complex and not simpler in cash-poor economies.

Hense such Medieval documents as the "Domesday Book" - the whole point of which was to make sure William the Bastard got what he was owed.

Illiterate nobles there may have been, but that put them at the mercy of their clerks, a major disadvantage.

The flaw in this argument is that literacy for accounting purposes is relatively simple; in no way does it rule out functional illiteracy.  There's the (likely, IMO) possibility that nobles were taught what they needed to know for accountancy, but still needed an advisor to read off letters from other nobles, likely prepared by a similar advisor.  The whole concept of the wax seal would suggest this- the seals functioned as a signature; given literacy and the uniqueness of handwriting, seals would have been unnecessary and redundant.

[The Brain]

You guys are forgetting that the main use of literacy aside from religion is to do accounting, basically so that nobles can extract their share from the peasants, higer nobles from lower, and the king from everyone; and that this task is more complex and not simpler in cash-poor economies.

Hense such Medieval documents as the "Domesday Book" - the whole point of which was to make sure William the Bastard got what he was owed.

Illiterate nobles there may have been, but that put them at the mercy of their clerks, a major disadvantage.

The flaw in this argument is that literacy for accounting purposes is relatively simple; in no way does it rule out functional illiteracy.  There's the (likely, IMO) possibility that nobles were taught what they needed to know for accountancy, but still needed an advisor to read off letters from other nobles, likely prepared by a similar advisor.  The whole concept of the wax seal would suggest this- the seals functioned as a signature; given literacy and the uniqueness of handwriting, seals would have been unnecessary and redundant.

The concept of seals is still in use in the form of official stamps and such, seals are not only a signature.

[Razgovory]

In the absence of any good estimation of Roman literacy based on hard evidence from their time I think that your best bet may be to simply compare the general level of organization to later eras, find an era that seems to match, and look at the literacy at this later date (where much more evidence is available). I would guess that as a first approximation this is as good as it gets.

After thinking about this for 30 seconds my impression is that Western Europe reached Roman levels of societal organization very roughly around 1700. Of course you can also look at possible smaller areas that reached the level earlier and so on, the more data points the merrier. Especially interesting to compare eras before and after printing.

I would have guessed around 1300 also, before the black death.

I was thinking 1200 BC.

[Solmyr]

You guys are forgetting that the main use of literacy aside from religion is to do accounting, basically so that nobles can extract their share from the peasants, higer nobles from lower, and the king from everyone; and that this task is more complex and not simpler in cash-poor economies.

Hense such Medieval documents as the "Domesday Book" - the whole point of which was to make sure William the Bastard got what he was owed.

Illiterate nobles there may have been, but that put them at the mercy of their clerks, a major disadvantage.

The flaw in this argument is that literacy for accounting purposes is relatively simple; in no way does it rule out functional illiteracy.  There's the (likely, IMO) possibility that nobles were taught what they needed to know for accountancy, but still needed an advisor to read off letters from other nobles, likely prepared by a similar advisor.  The whole concept of the wax seal would suggest this- the seals functioned as a signature; given literacy and the uniqueness of handwriting, seals would have been unnecessary and redundant.

Feudal accounting was done via notches on sticks or somesuch (called tally sticks, hence the modern term "to tally"). No need to be literate for that.

[Viking]

Feudal accounting was done via notches on sticks or somesuch (called tally sticks, hence the modern term "to tally"). No need to be literate for that.

History of England Podcast?

[jimmy olsen]

You guys are forgetting that the main use of literacy aside from religion is to do accounting, basically so that nobles can extract their share from the peasants, higer nobles from lower, and the king from everyone; and that this task is more complex and not simpler in cash-poor economies.

Hense such Medieval documents as the "Domesday Book" - the whole point of which was to make sure William the Bastard got what he was owed.

Illiterate nobles there may have been, but that put them at the mercy of their clerks, a major disadvantage.

The flaw in this argument is that literacy for accounting purposes is relatively simple; in no way does it rule out functional illiteracy.  There's the (likely, IMO) possibility that nobles were taught what they needed to know for accountancy, but still needed an advisor to read off letters from other nobles, likely prepared by a similar advisor.  The whole concept of the wax seal would suggest this- the seals functioned as a signature; given literacy and the uniqueness of handwriting, seals would have been unnecessary and redundant.

Feudal accounting was done via notches on sticks or somesuch (called tally sticks, hence the modern term "to tally"). No need to be literate for that.

When the bushels of grain your owed comes into the hundreds or thousands, tally sticks just don't cut it.

[Razgovory]

Feudal accounting was done via notches on sticks or somesuch (called tally sticks, hence the modern term "to tally"). No need to be literate for that.

Well, the Normans who ruled England used a checker piece of cloth.  Hence the office of the exchequer.

[Admiral Yi]

Well, the Normans who ruled England used a checker piece of cloth.  Hence the office of the exchequer.

And they held council meetings in the toilet.  Hence the office of Lord Privy Seal.

[Razgovory]

Your joke is unfunny.

[Ideologue]

It was all right, as an intentional groaner.  Raz, you need to get off Yi's case.

[Ed Anger]

Raz, join me in harassing Tim.

[Razgovory]

I didn't know I stopped.