Americas Elect 2012 - the Not Party

[Admiral Yi]

But you say this like Communism's either a mainstream current of thought or as if the left never got over it.  Whole tomes of Socialist and Social Democratic theory emerged distinct from and critiquing Communism from a very early point.  Even if they still took some Marxist ideas as a starting point.

We just had a thread in which 11% of survey respondents expressed a favorable attitude towards Communism.

[Ed Anger]

I'd support Hitler if it meant no more election commercials on my TV.

[Sheilbh]

I know, I'm suggesting the aeroplane's been re-designed a bit.  Even Eurocommunism's cuddly.

[The Brain]

Good for you.

And that's not even mentioning the millions of dead which have resulted from failed attempt after failed attempt to install communist governments and economies across the world.

The numbers of dead pale compared to the successful attempts.

[Razgovory]

I know, I'm suggesting the aeroplane's been re-designed a bit.  Even Eurocommunism's cuddly.

Perhaps because they never had free reign.

[Admiral Yi]

I know, I'm suggesting the aeroplane's been re-designed a bit.  Even Eurocommunism's cuddly.

And you're assuming that what people support is the wonky Scandinavian version instead of the kill the rich and fuck their skulls version that Grallon preaches.

[fhdz]

But you say this like Communism's either a mainstream current of thought or as if the left never got over it.  Whole tomes of Socialist and Social Democratic theory emerged distinct from and critiquing Communism from a very early point.  Even if they still took some Marxist ideas as a starting point.

No, I don't think communism's mainstream any more than I think libertarianism is mainstream. I do think there are probably a good number of avowed communists or at least hardcore socialists participating in OWS, even though OWS is not just a fringe movement. There are hardcore libertarians describing themselves as Tea Partiers, too.

And as long as there are places like North Korea and Cuba, and communist revolts in Nepal, I think it's disingenuous to say the Left has completely "left communism behind".

[Jacob]

No, I don't think communism's mainstream any more than I think libertarianism is mainstream. I do think there are probably a good number of avowed communists or at least hardcore socialists participating in OWS, even though OWS is not just a fringe movement. There are hardcore libertarians describing themselves as Tea Partiers, too.

Of course there are. The avowed strategy of most of the modern day revolutionary socialist groups is to co-opt any and all popular movement in the quixotic hope of leading it towards popular revolution. I'd be shocked if the various International Socialists and Trotskyists and so on aren't out there trying to make it look like the general disaffection supports their particular brands of Marxism.

[fhdz]

Of course there are. The avowed strategy of most of the modern day revolutionary socialist groups is to co-opt any and all popular movement in the quixotic hope of leading it towards popular revolution. I'd be shocked if the various International Socialists and Trotskyists and so on aren't out there trying to make it look like the general disaffection supports their particular brands of Marxism.

Yes, and idealism's infectious for sure.

[Jacob]

Yes, and idealism's infectious for sure.

I don't know. Back when I was politically involved, most people found the various splinter Trotskyist groups really annoying.

[Ideologue]

But you say this like Communism's either a mainstream current of thought or as if the left never got over it.  Whole tomes of Socialist and Social Democratic theory emerged distinct from and critiquing Communism from a very early point.  Even if they still took some Marxist ideas as a starting point.

No, I don't think communism's mainstream any more than I think libertarianism is mainstream. I do think there are probably a good number of avowed communists or at least hardcore socialists participating in OWS, even though OWS is not just a fringe movement. There are hardcore libertarians describing themselves as Tea Partiers, too.

And as long as there are places like North Korea and Cuba, and communist revolts in Nepal, I think it's disingenuous to say the Left has completely "left communism behind".

I know I receive all my instructions from Pyongyang.

[The Minsky Moment]

very 20th-century

So 20th century it's 19th century. 

[fhdz]

Yes, and idealism's infectious for sure.

I don't know. Back when I was politically involved, most people found the various splinter Trotskyist groups really annoying.

My major issue was with a) extremists themselves, be they communists or libertarians, and b) what you might call the "sympathizers" - the folks who argue "well, communism hasn't worked because it hasn't really been tried yet." The suggestion there is, of course, that it's just a matter of time before someone waves the wand the right way and poof! the heretofore imaginary socio-economic system becomes viable. It lends a false credence to the ideas; it gives them more mass and velocity than they should have.

[Ideologue]

The detestable creed of centrism claims another victim.

[Razgovory]

I admit, I admire Deng for going "Well, this shit ain't working.  Lets try something else".  I suppose I just admire pragmatism.  Airy ideas are all well and good, but I'm always more interested in the nuts and bolts of a government.  This is why I was harping on the idea of enforcement in the EU.  I have always been partial to the joke:

"That's all well and good in practice...but how does it work in theory?"   I think that describes Utopianists to a tee.