Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[DGuller]

I agree.  But if private sector wages were not so low the public sector ones would not necessarily be overpaid.  But pay is not established by high productivity they are dictated by the labor market.  If wages went up when productivity went up we should be having historic highs of real wages.

Labor productivity factors into the labor market.  The old shibboleth about workers not enjoying the benefits of increasing productivity overlooks the fact that increasing productivity in the modern age is largely a function of computerization of the work place.  Economics predicts that if a worker increases his output with a fixed amount of capital the benefits of the increased productivity should accrue to the worker.

I brought up that very point to Minsky some time ago, about the farmers and the tractors, but he refuted that with some kind of argument about competition for workers.

[derspiess]

As bad as most public employee unions are, police unions have to go right at the top of the list.  They don't just extort higher wages and perks, they also further corruption that's ultimately a conspiracy against the public. 

Ed's gonna make another Slavic crack at you.

What for?

For slagging police unions. 

[DGuller]

For slagging police unions.

Is that a Slavic trait?

[Admiral Yi]

Is that a Slavic trait?

Speesh is taking a jab at Boner for getting soft and lumpy when the governor of Ohio tried to take on the police union.

[Razgovory]

Before I jump to some conclusion, what is your point?

That you don't have one.

Everyone you named in your example is engaged in criminal acts.  Is that a coincidence?

[Darth Wagtaros]

Who are the posters here who are staunch defenders of cops?

Also, lame. So protest like a bitch and get paid for it.

They were college kids.  Let them sit there until they needed to recharge their cell phones or ipods and it'd have broken up on its own. 

[Valmy]

Labor productivity factors into the labor market.  The old shibboleth about workers not enjoying the benefits of increasing productivity overlooks the fact that increasing productivity in the modern age is largely a function of computerization of the work place.  Economics predicts that if a worker increases his output with a fixed amount of capital the benefits of the increased productivity should accrue to the worker.

I am not making some moral or theoretical point here or even demanding some action be taken because it is just a reflection of current realities than some sort of great injustice.  I am just lamenting the facts on the ground.  This is a problem that exists across the First World.  To me it appears result of the inevitable and necessary globalization of the labor market. 

I expected something like this would happen and hoped the eventual benefits would be worth a tough transition time...but it is on a pretty big scale and I do worry about social stability.  Also I have to admit I am rather sobered by the amount of service sector jobs that are being outsourced though in retrospect I should have expected it.  And it is pretty sobering to see it upclose.  Also I think the hope was that the social safety net would carry us over any rough spots but they seem to be strained. 

Also it seems awfully inefficient to have such huge numbers of people unemployed or underemployed and relying on public assistance.  We have surplus labor but there is no place for it to go.  Thus the race to the bottom.

Naturally as the facts stand public sector wages have just got to be cut.  But it is hardly something to celebrate.  It is a reflection of difficult times.

[Admiral Yi]

Everyone you named in your example is engaged in criminal acts.  Is that a coincidence?

I could easily come up with examples of people plundering the public treasury for private gain that were not illegal.  I just finished up Fukuyama's book on the origins of government (which I heartily recommend to everyone), which had a long discussion of the sale of offices by France and Spain.  Obviously those were legal acts because the kings said they were.  Still worthy of resentment.

The fact is I don't resent people for getting paid money.  Nor for getting paid in kind.  Nothing I have ever posted would lead a reasonable person to infer that I resent people for getting paid money.

Will this post cause you to reflect back on your ridiculous post about me resenting people getting paid?   To concede that it was retarded and you should make an effort not to post further retarded thoughts?  Probably not.  If you follow the historical pattern you will forget you ever made it and procede on, looking for that next post that you think will be the real death-dealer that blows apart my entire position.

[The Minsky Moment]

Yes really.  Society is better served by having high paying jobs for which the pay is a function of high productivity. 

How would you propose measuring productivity for school teachers and police?

Economics predicts that if a worker increases his output with a fixed amount of capital the benefits of the increased productivity should accrue to the worker.

"should" is a prescriptive statement - i would agree with the concept but that doesn't meant that is what will happen.
Whether worker compensation will actually rise may depend on a number of factors including industry structure and labor market dynamics.
Another problem with this formulation is identifying with any precision what is meant by fixed quantum of capital, which raises a lot of methodlogical issues that were all the rage in the 60s and 70s.

[Malthus]

How would you propose measuring productivity for school teachers and police?

Inversely. 

More kids arrested = more productive police, less productive teachers. Less kids arrested = less productive police, more productive teachers.

[The Brain]

How would you propose measuring productivity for school teachers and police?

Do you think the details regarding how you measure it are important?

[Admiral Yi]

How would you propose measuring productivity for school teachers and police?

What hypothetical situation have you placed me in that requires I even bother?

"should" is a prescriptive statement - i would agree with the concept but that doesn't meant that is what will happen.
Whether worker compensation will actually rise may depend on a number of factors including industry structure and labor market dynamics.
Another problem with this formulation is identifying with any precision what is meant by fixed quantum of capital, which raises a lot of methodlogical issues that were all the rage in the 60s and 70s.

All true, but at the risk of sounding overly brusque, so what?

[The Minsky Moment]

What hypothetical situation have you placed me in that requires I even bother?

I don't think I've placed you in any situation.  But if your position is that compensation should be proportional to productivity and you have an opinion as to whether teacher/police pay is too high or too low, then it would seem necessary to have data on the former to support the latter.

All true, but at the risk of sounding overly brusque, so what?

Computerization in the workplace does not necessarily explain stagnation in worker incomes.

[frunk]

How would you propose measuring productivity for school teachers and police?

What hypothetical situation have you placed me in that requires I even bother?

If you can't measure their productivity, how do you know they are being paid too much?

[Admiral Yi]

I don't think I've placed you in any situation.  But if your position is that compensation should be proportional to productivity and you have an opinion as to whether teacher/police pay is too high or too low, then it would seem necessary to have data on the former to support the latter.

Fair enough.  I start from the assumption that teacher producitivity is more or less constant across all states and conclude that teachers in unionized states are overpaid based on the salary differential between those states and right to work states.

This thesis is also supported by the well-documented connection between union campaign contributions and legislative support for their pay and benefits. 

And finally there is the fact that, with the exception of certain academic fields like science and math, and certain "hardship" locations, school districts are not going begging for applicants, which one would expect if the positions were underpaid.