Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[Jacob]

What, the NDP? 

I was thinking the Conservatives, what with their support of medicare and so on....

[Josephus]

The phrase 'reactionary' seems to me to be the leftists version or a right-winger calling their opponent a 'socialist'.  It may have some very debatable merit to the phrase, but is so loaded with negative connotations and attitudes that its use is intended as an insult, not as merely descriptive.

Clearly we need a Reactionary Socialist party then.

I'm willing to start one. Just for fun. Who wants to join?

[Josephus]

The phrase 'reactionary' seems to me to be the leftists version or a right-winger calling their opponent a 'socialist'.  It may have some very debatable merit to the phrase, but is so loaded with negative connotations and attitudes that its use is intended as an insult, not as merely descriptive.

I dunno, many proudly describe themselves as 'socialist' or describe particular measures, neutrally, as 'socialist'. Few people proudly refer to themselves as "reactionary". I don't think socialist always has the perjorative meaning of 'reactionary'.

yeah, but I see what BB means. In the US especially, left-of-centrists are always labelled socialists in a purely pejorative manner. Obama, for instance, wouldn't call himself a socialist.

[crazy canuck]

Nobody in the thread had the slightest idea if pepper cop was in violation until Seedy came along

No Berkut.  You were the only one who didnt have a clue that it was wrong until Seedy had to explain to you in detail how wrong it was.  BB certainly understood it since he deals with the issue of police force in his work.  I certainly knew it from the work I had done with the APEC Inquiry years ago.  In fact I cant think of one other person that didnt know that using pepper spray in the fist instance was wrong.

Just becuase you didnt understand it but continued to assert nobody could know for sure doesnt make everyone around you as blissfully unaware as you seemed to be.

[crazy canuck]

The phrase 'reactionary' seems to me to be the leftists version or a right-winger calling their opponent a 'socialist'.  It may have some very debatable merit to the phrase, but is so loaded with negative connotations and attitudes that its use is intended as an insult, not as merely descriptive.

I dunno, many proudly describe themselves as 'socialist' or describe particular measures, neutrally, as 'socialist'. Few people proudly refer to themselves as "reactionary". I don't think socialist always has the perjorative meaning of 'reactionary'.

yeah, but I see what BB means. In the US especially, left-of-centrists are always labelled socialists in a purely pejorative manner. Obama, for instance, wouldn't call himself a socialist.

Yeah, the usual trope here is for the left to call themselves "progressive" and then call the right a number of things but reactionary fits in this case.  I dont see many people on the left here proudly calling themselves socialist.  Certainly that was once true but less so now.  In fact the NDP had a bit of an internal fight over the issue of whether they should keep the word socialist.  I cant remember how that worked out.

[Malthus]

The phrase 'reactionary' seems to me to be the leftists version or a right-winger calling their opponent a 'socialist'.  It may have some very debatable merit to the phrase, but is so loaded with negative connotations and attitudes that its use is intended as an insult, not as merely descriptive.

I dunno, many proudly describe themselves as 'socialist' or describe particular measures, neutrally, as 'socialist'. Few people proudly refer to themselves as "reactionary". I don't think socialist always has the perjorative meaning of 'reactionary'.

yeah, but I see what BB means. In the US especially, left-of-centrists are always labelled socialists in a purely pejorative manner. Obama, for instance, wouldn't call himself a socialist.

Yeah, the usual trope here is for the left to call themselves "progressive" and then call the right a number of things but reactionary fits in this case.  I dont see many people on the left here proudly calling themselves socialist.  Certainly that was once true but less so now.  In fact the NDP had a bit of an internal fight over the issue of whether they should keep the word socialist.  I cant remember how that worked out.

They dropped the matter. The NDP is still "socialist".

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1011414

"Socialism is not an anchor, it's a rocket," Barry Weisleder, who chairs the unofficial socialist caucus that meets in its own room at NDP conventions, shot back.

"You can take socialism out of the preamble, but you can't take socialism out of the NDP."

Can anyone imagine someone being part of a "reactionary caucus" within the Conservative Party proudly stating "You can take reationary out of the preamble, but you can't take reactionary out of the Conservatives"?

Quite obviously, in Canada at least "socialist" is not perjorative in the same way that "reactionary" is. Just ... no.

[crazy canuck]

Malthus the point is that many in the NDP once proclaimed themselves as socialist.  That is not true anymore.  They are trying their best to move away from that descriptor because it is recognized in today's politics as a negative characterization.  There appear to still be some hard core socialists within the NDP.  I suppose that is not all that surprising.  It  might take another generation to be rid of them entirely.  But I dont think any of that takes away form what BB said.

[Jacob]

Can anyone imagine someone being part of a "reactionary caucus" within the Conservative Party proudly stating "You can take reationary out of the preamble, but you can't take reactionary out of the Conservatives"?

Easily 

[Malthus]

Malthus the point is that many in the NDP once proclaimed themselves as socialist.  That is not true anymore.  They are trying their best to move away from that descriptor because it is recognized in today's politics as a negative characterization.  There appear to still be some hard core socialists within the NDP.  I suppose that is not all that surprising.  It  might take another generation to be rid of them entirely.  But I dont think any of that takes away form what BB said.

I disagree. What you have is some in the NDP who think the party should move to the middle of the spectrum, perhaps merge with the liberals, and have a real shot at actual power - being for once the governing party. Naturally, to do that they will have to look more like the Liberals, and tossing out "socialism" is part of that.

This demonstrates that these folks believe an openly "socialist" party is unlikely to win enough support to be THE GOVERNING PARTY. Note that this issue only came up after an election in which the openly-socialist NDP won official opposition status, thus making it look like they had a shot at "the big time".

What it does NOT demonstrate, is that "socialism" is really a dirty, perjorative term only applied to them by their enemies, inaccurately, to blacken their names - something from which all reasonable NDPers would react with righteous anger at the abuse of being so smeared -- such as the term "reactionary".

That is true in the US with the Democrats. It is simply not true in Canada, where an openly socialist party, full member party of the Socialist International, is her majesty's official opposition. 

Look here under "Canada":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International

[crazy canuck]

Can anyone imagine someone being part of a "reactionary caucus" within the Conservative Party proudly stating "You can take reationary out of the preamble, but you can't take reactionary out of the Conservatives"?

Easily 

Since no one within the Conservative party would ever label themselves as "reactionary" I am not sure how you might think that this would be easy to imagine.  Granted it is easy for someone on the left to image parts of the Conservative caucus as reactionary but that is a different matter.

[Malthus]

Can anyone imagine someone being part of a "reactionary caucus" within the Conservative Party proudly stating "You can take reationary out of the preamble, but you can't take reactionary out of the Conservatives"?

Easily 

Speaks more for your opinion of Conservatives, than anything else! 

[Jacob]

Since no one within the Conservative party would ever label themselves as "reactionary" I am not sure how you might think that this would be easy to imagine.  Granted it is easy for someone on the left to image parts of the Conservative caucus as reactionary but that is a different matter.

All it would require is a little more honesty from some conservatives.

Though I guess you're right. That is hard to imagine.

[Jacob]

Can anyone imagine someone being part of a "reactionary caucus" within the Conservative Party proudly stating "You can take reationary out of the preamble, but you can't take reactionary out of the Conservatives"?

Easily 

Speaks more for your opinion of Conservatives, than anything else! 

Much as it's against Languish SOP, I'll admit to just fucking around.

You and CC are correct - the word "reactionary" is a pejorative in Canada (though this doesn't mean that Oex's usage is incorrect either, just that the terminology is rather politicized).

[crazy canuck]

Mathus, I am not sure why you say the NDP is an "openly socialist" party.  How many times did you hear Layton utter the word socialist during the last, or any, election.  I cant recall it ever happening.  And certainly here in BC (arguably the heartland of NDP socialism now that Saskatchewan has veered hard right) the provincial NDP would never dream of using the word.  The Leader Adrian Dix is doing his best to paint himself as a moderate - even though in the past he was one who would readily have called himself a socialist.

[Malthus]

Mathus, I am not sure why you say the NDP is an "openly socialist" party.  How many times did you hear Layton utter the word socialist during the last, or any, election.  I cant recall it ever happening.  And certainly here in BC (arguably the heartland of NDP socialism now that Saskatchewan has veered hard right) the provincial NDP would never dream of using the word.  The Leader Adrian Dix is doing his best to paint himself as a moderate - even though in the past he was one who would readily have called himself a socialist.

Easy - the issue of wherther to remove the term "socialist" in describing themselves was brought up, and it was not so removed. They are openly members of the "Socialist International".

What more is needed to be "openly socialist"?