Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[Neil]

Unless a country wants to make feta cheese or champagne.

Words need to have meanings, nothing wrong with that.

Same reason Neil cannot call himself an "American" despite his painful desire to do so.

The same reason you can't call yourself a Westerner, you filthy Russian faggot fuck.  Go fool around with your whore.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, but they're trying to twist those meanings in order to advantage particular regions.  That's not alright, and we don't tolerate it.

Well food's tied to the land.  What's key is often the way something's made though.  But I can still buy 'Feta-style' white cheese in the supermarket that isn't from Lesbos but is produced in a broadly similar way, but I know when I buy Feta that that's exactly what I'm getting.

I'm entirely behind the EU on denominated areas.

[Neil]

Yeah, but they're trying to twist those meanings in order to advantage particular regions.  That's not alright, and we don't tolerate it.

Well food's tied to the land.  What's key is often the way something's made though.  But I can still buy 'Feta-style' white cheese in the supermarket that isn't from Lesbos but is produced in a broadly similar way, but I know when I buy Feta that that's exactly what I'm getting.

I'm entirely behind the EU on denominated areas.

The idea that the location in which food is made is important is silly, and shouldn't be allowed.  It isn't allowed here, and we're 100% in the right and the EU is 100% in the wrong.  If you're a food snob, then you can source your food how you like, but it is wrong for the state to compel the manufacturers to help you in your attempt to enforce food snobbery.  If people care enough, then manufacturers can use marketing to advance their product as coming from a particular area, but instead having the government create the myth that feta cheese from outside of some shithole in Greece isn't really feta is corrupt, wasteful and exactly the sort of thing I've come to expect from the EU.

You're behind the EU on this because you're such a Europhile that I can't think of a time where you didn't approve of something the EU did.  Now, that's a bit of an ad-hom, but because you brought your opinion into it, I feel right in bringing your record into this.

[Martinus]

So you are saying that sparkling wine produced in the US should be called "champagne"? 

[Neil]

So you are saying that sparkling wine produced in the US should be called "champagne"? 

I'm saying it is champagne.

[The Brain]

The idea that the state should make laws about this kind of word usage is ridiculous. But then the EU is immensely silly.

[Sheilbh]

If you're a food snob then the problem is you can't source your food as you want.  Someone in Dewlish could announce they're making feta and there'd be no way for consumers to know that what they're buying isn't Greek, isn't from a specific type of sheep, or made in a specific way: that effectively it's not 'feta'.  Effectively these are brands inherited by different communities.  They deserve protection because they help consumers make informed choices.

I've changed my opinion on the EU quite wildly over the past few years.  I'm now more or less Eurosceptic.

[The Brain]

If you're a food snob then the problem is you can't source your food as you want.  Someone in Dewlish could announce they're making feta and there'd be no way for consumers to know that what they're buying isn't Greek, isn't from a specific type of sheep, or made in a specific way: that effectively it's not 'feta'.  Effectively these are brands inherited by different communities.  They deserve protection because they help consumers make informed choices.

I've changed my opinion on the EU quite wildly over the past few years.  I'm now more or less Eurosceptic.

Why would a food snob buy stuff that comes without enough information for snobbery?

[Neil]

If you're a food snob then the problem is you can't source your food as you want.  Someone in Dewlish could announce they're making feta and there'd be no way for consumers to know that what they're buying isn't Greek, isn't from a specific type of sheep, or made in a specific way: that effectively it's not 'feta'.  Effectively these are brands inherited by different communities.  They deserve protection because they help consumers make informed choices.

See, these aren't really problems though.  Food snobs don't deserve the easy way out, and I don't really believe that this is related at all to consumer choice, or protection, or anything.  This is a case where the EU is being abused by various lobbies to provide preferential status for their products.  Food snobs do not deserve the protection of the state.

If it looks like feta, and it tastes like feta, it's feta, no matter the citizenship of the farmer or the subtype of sheep.  That's the bottom line.  They are not brands anymore than 'cola' is a brand, or 'cheddar'.  Even if they were, they would be public domain every bit as much as those other products are.

[Martinus]

There is a also another important aspect to many of the "apellationes controllees". Many of the food products use traditional methods that would be illegal under modern sanitary rules - that's why making an exception for some local community helps to maintain the tradition without undermining the entire food regulation system.

[Ideologue]

There is a also another important aspect to many of the "apellationes controllees". Many of the food products use traditional methods that would be illegal under modern sanitary rules - that's why making an exception for some local community helps to maintain the tradition without undermining the entire food regulation system.

If the tradition would be illegal, why would you want to maintain it?

[Razgovory]

So, angry letters.  Marty said there was a way to kick out members, do you know what it is?  Has the EU been able to punish a major European power in a way that immediately forced them to stop something they really wanted to do?  By major European power I mean one the big boys like the UK, France, Italy, or Germany?

Why does the method matter?  The European Commission's job is generally to make sure that EU member states apply EU law.  Some countries do it automatically I think, some like France and the UK require French or British law to give it effect.  The Commission, in the case you asked about, wasn't happy with French implementation of a directive, they got the French to change that.  In 70% of cases the Commission gets the government to change policy through angry letters, it's only in that remaining third that they bring actions against member states.

The EU isn't generally in the business of stopping countries from doing things, they're passing their own laws and the main worry is getting them uniformally applied.  Also their procedures aren't really immediate.  The Commission has various stages of escalation before ultimately suing a country and ending up in the CJEU.  I imagine it would take time in the US for a case to do with Utah law to reach the Supreme Court too.  Having said that I know the Commission's won cases against the UK, France, Italy and Germany and in each case it's led to a change in domestic legislation and a fine.

Because angry letters and threats of sanctions will only work when a country is not really behind something.  The economic threats fall completely flat when the wrong doer is economically stronger then the abused.  If say Latvia feels it's being treated unfairly by Germany, what are they going to do?  Is the rest of the EU really going to damage itself to punish Germany?  I doubt it, and your statements about the EU refusal to enforce the rules and the wide spread cheating indicates that they don't.

I am looking at this from the US perspective where we have had a long history of States simply ignoring Washington (and in some cases the Executive branch ignoring the judicial branch).  If left to themselves the states would not of integrated their schools.  It took soldiers to force them to do it.  If a European state wants to harass a minority, a minority hated by the general populace like the Roma, who is going to stop them?

Where is the mechanism for expulsion that Marty eluded to?

[Sheilbh]

If it looks like feta, and it tastes like feta, it's feta, no matter the citizenship of the farmer or the subtype of sheep.  That's the bottom line.  They are not brands anymore than 'cola' is a brand, or 'cheddar'.  Even if they were, they would be public domain every bit as much as those other products are.

I disagree.  I think 'feta-style' cheese is 'cola', 'feta' is 'coke' or 'pepsi'.

If the tradition would be illegal, why would you want to maintain it?

There are more important things than modern obsessive food hygiene.

[Razgovory]

There is a also another important aspect to many of the "apellationes controllees". Many of the food products use traditional methods that would be illegal under modern sanitary rules - that's why making an exception for some local community helps to maintain the tradition without undermining the entire food regulation system.

You used the same argument in reverse to rail against Kosher and Halal slaughter.  That ancient traditions of food preparation should not given exceptions from the law.  Which is it?

[Neil]

I disagree.  I think 'feta-style' cheese is 'cola', 'feta' is 'coke' or 'pepsi'.

No.  'feta-style' is 'cola-style', while 'feta' is 'cola'.  'Athenos' is 'Coke'.