Parti Québécois Balkanizes

[viper37]

I just wonder, wtf are they doing with their money.

Buying more expensive houses, cars & clothes, investing it various pension funds so they receive a fair return, starting new companies, financing research, financing hospitals&schools, generally creating jobs by their high consumption rates, etc, etc.

My ex girlfriend's son was working in a Diesel store in Montreal, he used to make tons of money with what he was selling to the rich customers visiting the store.  So that's what rich people do: make more money for themselves and everyone else around.

Are we Russia, is our only way of generating wealth is to cheat the system at every corner?

it's been like that for a while, you know.

[Grey Fox]

I just wonder, wtf are they doing with their money.

Buying more expensive houses, cars & clothes, investing it various pension funds so they receive a fair return, starting new companies, financing research, financing hospitals&schools, generally creating jobs by their high consumption rates, etc, etc.

My ex girlfriend's son was working in a Diesel store in Montreal, he used to make tons of money with what he was selling to the rich customers visiting the store.  So that's what rich people do: make more money for themselves and everyone else around.

Are we Russia, is our only way of generating wealth is to cheat the system at every corner?

it's been like that for a while, you know.

1774 or so.

[viper37]

Malthus didn't ask that the press stop talking about Quebec though. I couldn't imagine why he would, especially since he doesn't seem to be the one upset in any case. More of a patronizing bemusement, I would say...

You're doing the lawyer stuff, à la Malthus.  Take one incomplete piece of data and extrapolate it for a totally different situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment

It is interesting that you demanded some kind of study to "prove" that corruption in Quebec was so much more an issue than elsewhere, and then turn around and cite this:

There is a perception among the French language media in Quebec that an unfavourable depiction of Quebec by the media became especially prevalent in the years following the 1995 Quebec referendum on Quebec independence,[3][4] although there is no study or statistical evidence provided to back this assertion.

You seem to have rather flexible requirements for when you require statistical evidence to believe something...

read further, but most of all read correctly what you're quoting.  There's no statistical evidence that shows the anti-quebec sentiment to be stronger post 1995 than it was before.  The Anti-Quebec/French sentiments haven't really changed in Canada since the time of George Brown.  It's amazing how the arguments are mostly the same.

Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But, I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[106]

And you got tons of references all troughout the text.  It's only a matter of debate if it dominates Canadian culture or not, not to its existence.

And having stats to demonstrate that a province systematically receives more money than all the others is one thing, having stats to demonstrate the feeling of a population is harder.  Just like you can get reliable stats on crime, but it's hard to get viable stats on the motivation of criminals.

[viper37]

1774 or so.

Remember your history lessons?  How trade with the English colonies was forbidden and those who dared sell their pelts to the English got branded as traitors?  That was a full century before 1774.

[Grey Fox]

1774 or so.

Remember your history lessons?  How trade with the English colonies was forbidden and those who dared sell their pelts to the English got branded as traitors?  That was a full century before 1774.

eh, I forgot that.

[crazy canuck]

Yes. This is Canada mate, the Toronto media is annoying entitled filth. Just ask CC.

Actually, I quite like the Globe and get most of my news from that source.

[Berkut]

Malthus didn't ask that the press stop talking about Quebec though. I couldn't imagine why he would, especially since he doesn't seem to be the one upset in any case. More of a patronizing bemusement, I would say...

You're doing the lawyer stuff, à la Malthus.  Take one incomplete piece of data and extrapolate it for a totally different situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment

It is interesting that you demanded some kind of study to "prove" that corruption in Quebec was so much more an issue than elsewhere, and then turn around and cite this:

There is a perception among the French language media in Quebec that an unfavourable depiction of Quebec by the media became especially prevalent in the years following the 1995 Quebec referendum on Quebec independence,[3][4] although there is no study or statistical evidence provided to back this assertion.

You seem to have rather flexible requirements for when you require statistical evidence to believe something...

read further, but most of all read correctly what you're quoting.  There's no statistical evidence that shows the anti-quebec sentiment to be stronger post 1995 than it was before.  The Anti-Quebec/French sentiments haven't really changed in Canada since the time of George Brown.  It's amazing how the arguments are mostly the same.

Ahhh, my fault then.

Go ahead and provide the statistical evidence to back up the assertion that there is this terribly unjust anti-Quebec sentiment in the media.

Anecdotes, of course, are not statistical evidence.

Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But, I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[106]

And you got tons of references all troughout the text.  It's only a matter of debate if it dominates Canadian culture or not, not to its existence.
[/quote]

You get tons of anecdotes and supposed examples of bias. I read them. Some of them seem kind of biased, although I realize I am only seeing one side of the story. But there are lots of examples I could find of anti-Democrat or anti-Republican articles in the US press - that is not evidence that the press as a whole are one or the other.

My suspicion is that what there really is a very well developed victim complex, although I would certainly not claim that there is any "statistical evidence", just the impression I get from you guys. Perhaps it is limited to just the Languish posters.

[Oexmelin]

Remember your history lessons?  How trade with the English colonies was forbidden and those who dared sell their pelts to the English got branded as traitors?  That was a full century before 1774.

Exclusive colonial trade was the orthodoxy of the time - in France as in British North America. Smugglers were never branded as traitors - on the contrary, they were usually seen as valuable people gone astray (while traitors were treated with spite).

[Berkut]

Remember your history lessons?  How trade with the English colonies was forbidden and those who dared sell their pelts to the English got branded as traitors?  That was a full century before 1774.

Exclusive colonial trade was the orthodoxy of the time - in France as in British North America. Smugglers were never branded as traitors - on the contrary, they were usually seen as valuable people gone astray (while traitors were treated with spite).

Yeah, wasn't there a lot of New Englanders trading with the Brits thoughout the American Revolutionary War, which was technically illegal by both parties to that conflict? Not to mention trading with the French during the Seven Years War, trading with pirates pretty much all the time, etc., etc.

[Neil]

What do you guys think of Francois Legault & his movement? He'll lose some traction once his party is up & running but I don't see how the Libs, Marois lead PQ & dieing ADQ can survive the next election cycle.

There will always be the tribal voters, and a big source of votes for the Liberals is the fact that there aren't any other real federalist choices, you know?  Where's the alternative for Anglos in Montreal, or federalist Francos?

[Grey Fox]

Legault might be. He'll propose that there is more pressing matters then Separation.

[Neil]

Legault might be. He'll propose that there is more pressing matters then Separation.

But not really.  Legault isn't going to separate right away, but he's still a sovereigntist.  I would imagine that'll prevent a lot of Anglos from voting for him.  I understand that there were some Anglos flirting with ADQ, but that party is pretty much adrift these days.  If Legault's a soft enough touch on the sovereigntism, he might be able to attract some of the Franco federalist vote, but I would think that it would be too risky for Anglos to vote for him.

[viper37]

What do you guys think of Francois Legault & his movement?

One name comes to mind: Robert Bourassa.  Why do things the right way when you can do them half way and still get credit?

[viper37]

Remember your history lessons?  How trade with the English colonies was forbidden and those who dared sell their pelts to the English got branded as traitors?  That was a full century before 1774.

Exclusive colonial trade was the orthodoxy of the time - in France as in British North America. Smugglers were never branded as traitors - on the contrary, they were usually seen as valuable people gone astray (while traitors were treated with spite).

I had Degroseillers in mind, wasn't he branded a traitor before even turning over to the British?

[crazy canuck]

I get the sense that for a lot of Quebecers the issue of separation is an important issue but not the most important issue.  To succeed the separatists need to build a big tent to address all those other concerns but that seems increasingly more difficult.

For example, using our very own Languish as a sample group, it is hard to imagine Viper and Grallon agreeing on anything.  I can see someone like Oex or Rex forming a reasonable centre around which such a tent could be built.  I can see people like Grey Fox supporting some reasonable middle ground.  But the challenge might be there are not enough people like Rex, GF and Oex to create the kind of support the separatist cause would need.

Interesting times for politicians in Quebec.  If I was a Quebec politician I would be sorely tempted to sit this round out and wait to see what comes out of this apparent chaos.