France Bans Public Prayer

[crazy canuck]

The french mindset sees religion as something private, that has no place in the public sphere. In most cases people don't even know what religion their political leaders follow.

For example former Prime Minister Jospin is protestant. I only found out last year. It just never occurred to me to inquire what faith if any he follows, I was watching an Italian documentary when they mentioned it.

If faith is a private matter what interest can the State have in how people practice it?

[The Brain]

The french mindset sees religion as something private, that has no place in the public sphere. In most cases people don't even know what religion their political leaders follow.

For example former Prime Minister Jospin is protestant. I only found out last year. It just never occurred to me to inquire what faith if any he follows, I was watching an Italian documentary when they mentioned it.

If faith is a private matter what interest can the State have in how people practice it?

I often take a dump in the street.

[Barrister]

The french mindset sees religion as something private, that has no place in the public sphere. In most cases people don't even know what religion their political leaders follow.

For example former Prime Minister Jospin is protestant. I only found out last year. It just never occurred to me to inquire what faith if any he follows, I was watching an Italian documentary when they mentioned it.

I'm really not sure what your anecdote about politicians has to do with street prayer.

It's pretty obvious that French muslims are not your typical french citizens, and clearly they don't share that "french mindset" you mention.  The question then becomes what do you do about it.  You can not legislate a mindset.

[Zoupa]

Watch us. 

[Zoupa]

The french mindset sees religion as something private, that has no place in the public sphere. In most cases people don't even know what religion their political leaders follow.

For example former Prime Minister Jospin is protestant. I only found out last year. It just never occurred to me to inquire what faith if any he follows, I was watching an Italian documentary when they mentioned it.

If faith is a private matter what interest can the State have in how people practice it?

None, as long as it absent from the public sphere.

[Oexmelin]

In France?  It is incredibly offensive.  I am not sure how much I need to go into that but surely a basic understanding of the past 500 years of French history should make that obvious.  To their credit they do not usually ban them like this though.

Yes. That being said, such a history also has created the pernicious effects which forces muslims in the streets every week. As churches became appropriated by the State in 1905, they are often now and maintained through public money. Mosques are not: they need to be built. This, of course, is problematic, since the muslim community in France is not rich, and France has opposed (diplomatically) the financing of mosques by foreign states (i.e., Saudi Arabia). Then enter the local politics of urban regulations, which is also liable to create some problems, as was recently seen in the US... Then, in some cities (such as Paris...) it is incredibly hard to build something anew, even when one does not consider the costs. So, you get improvised mosques in basements, in confined buildings, etc, which are not big enough to contain the worshippers. Add to that the usual reflex of Sarko & Co. to try to appeal to the far-right voters, and you get a much more complicated picture than "silly France" or "vive la laïcité".

[Valmy]

It's pretty obvious that French muslims are not your typical french citizens, and clearly they don't share that "french mindset" you mention.  The question then becomes what do you do about it.  You can not legislate a mindset.

Well it seems to me most of the French Muslims do share the mindset.

[Barrister]

Watch us. 

I have more faith in the Healing Power of Government(tm) than most, and even I think that this will not work.  But good luck, and let us know how it turns out. 

[Valmy]

Yes. That being said, such a history also has created the pernicious effects which forces muslims in the streets every week. As churches became appropriated by the State in 1905, they are often now and maintained through public money. Mosques are not: they need to be built. This, of course, is problematic, since the muslim community in France is not rich, and France has opposed (diplomatically) the financing of mosques by foreign states (i.e., Saudi Arabia). Then enter the local politics of urban regulations, which is also liable to create some problems, as was recently seen in the US... Then, in some cities (such as Paris...) it is incredibly hard to build something anew, even when one does not consider the costs. So, you get improvised mosques in basements, in confined buildings, etc, which are not big enough to contain the worshippers. Add to that the usual reflex of Sarko & Co. to try to appeal to the far-right voters, and you get a much more complicated picture than "silly France" or "vive la laïcité".

There always are lots of layers to issues like this.  It does sound like the government is trying to meet them half way by providing them places to pray...but one wonders what the long term solution will be.

[crazy canuck]

The french mindset sees religion as something private, that has no place in the public sphere. In most cases people don't even know what religion their political leaders follow.

For example former Prime Minister Jospin is protestant. I only found out last year. It just never occurred to me to inquire what faith if any he follows, I was watching an Italian documentary when they mentioned it.

If faith is a private matter what interest can the State have in how people practice it?

None, as long as it absent from the public sphere.

So you think the State does have a role in determining how people worship.  The State is perfectly justified in your mind in imposing rules so that the worship conforms to the State's view of how such things ought to be performed.  I must say that is an interesting insight into the French mind that I had not realized before this conversation.

[Valmy]

So you think the State does have a role in determining how people worship.  The State is perfectly justified in your mind in imposing rules so that the worship conforms to the State's view of how such things ought to be performed.  I must say that is an interesting insight into the French mind that I had not realized before this conversation.

What the fuck?  The French state does not care how you worship so long as you do not make a public show of it because of that 500 year history thing.  Religion has historically been a source of conflict, violence, and even a threat to the existance of the state.  How you take that and twist it to make it sound like France legislates how you worship is total horseshit.

[HVC]

Religion has historically been a source of conflict, violence, and even a threat to the existance of the state.

that's different from the rest of western europe how?

[Zoupa]

The french mindset sees religion as something private, that has no place in the public sphere. In most cases people don't even know what religion their political leaders follow.

For example former Prime Minister Jospin is protestant. I only found out last year. It just never occurred to me to inquire what faith if any he follows, I was watching an Italian documentary when they mentioned it.

If faith is a private matter what interest can the State have in how people practice it?

None, as long as it absent from the public sphere.

So you think the State does have a role in determining how people worship.  The State is perfectly justified in your mind in imposing rules so that the worship conforms to the State's view of how such things ought to be performed.  I must say that is an interesting insight into the French mind that I had not realized before this conversation.

Huh no? How did you possibly extrapolate that from my post?

[Valmy]

that's different from the rest of western europe how?

Well a big factor is that for the 19th century and on into the 20th to be religious was to be anti-Republican for the most part.  Recall the rather over the top anti-Clericism of the early 20th century Third Republic.  If anything the Republicans have mellowed out.

[Oexmelin]

that's different from the rest of western europe how?

It is different in that laïcité has become one of the cornerstone of the Republic. Other countries in Western Europe have had the Reformation - in which the State took direct control of the Church -  or not a very good track record of Republicanism, and a Catholic Church totally compromised with authoritarian power (Spain, Portugal).