Would embracing gays cost conservatives votes?

[derspiess]

I know.  I made mention of that since income inequality (whether real or imagined) is a driving force for women's groups and black civil rights groups.

But that's because gays have never been economically disadvantaged for generations in everything but love we've been equally advantaged and disadvantaged as anyone else.  Women and blacks have, so of course there's an important economic element there. 

I think you're missing my point.  I'm saying I hope the lack of supposed economic disparity would allow teh gayz to drop the movement thing in this scenario. 

But I fear they won't.  In Western societies these days victim status gets you certain advantages, and I don't think we'll see gay rights groups give that up even if they get what they are demanding at the moment.

[viper37]

Funny, I always pictured the gays as being from moderate to radical left-wing.  I guess the forum distorted my perception.

[Sheilbh]

But I fear they won't.  In Western societies these days victim status gets you certain advantages, and I don't think we'll see gay rights groups give that up even if they get what they are demanding at the moment.

I know.  Just look at American conservatives.

[Martinus]

Not sure whether or not having kids would influence your political choices. It doesn't seem to be very related to being pro-market or not for example.

- more disposable income
- does not care about stuff like education costs
- does not care about tax breaks, social assistance etc. for parents (prefers lower taxes instead)
- more inclined to save money/put money into a personal pension fund
- less likely to support various "protect the children" initiatives

[Zanza]

- more disposable income
- does not care about stuff like education costs
- does not care about tax breaks, social assistance etc. for parents (prefers lower taxes instead)
- more inclined to save money/put money into a personal pension fund
- less likely to support various "protect the children" initiatives

The characteristic you describe here is "childless", not necessarily "gay". I am not convinced that childless people generally have different political views than other people. It's possible, but I don't think my (current?) childlessness figures in my political decisions. I think a tax break for parents is a good policy regardless of whether I benefit from it or not.

However, your initial question was whether embracing gays would cost conservatives votes. Tax breaks to parents and "protect the children" initiatives are most certainly conservative policies, so giving those up to embrace gays would cost them dearly. The stuff you describe here is more like Euro-liberal or US-libertarian policies. The former certainly draws their strength from urban middle and upper classes, but I am not sure if childlessness figures much. As far as I know their constituency here is often self-employed well-earning people, regardless of whether they have children or not.

[derspiess]

But I fear they won't.  In Western societies these days victim status gets you certain advantages, and I don't think we'll see gay rights groups give that up even if they get what they are demanding at the moment.

I know.  Just look at American conservatives.

[Zanza]

But I fear they won't.  In Western societies these days victim status gets you certain advantages, and I don't think we'll see gay rights groups give that up even if they get what they are demanding at the moment.

I know.  Just look at American conservatives.

Just think of all the whining about how the mainstream media is biased against them.

[Warspite]

Not sure whether or not having kids would influence your political choices. It doesn't seem to be very related to being pro-market or not for example.

- more disposable income
- does not care about stuff like education costs
- does not care about tax breaks, social assistance etc. for parents (prefers lower taxes instead)
- more inclined to save money/put money into a personal pension fund
- less likely to support various "protect the children" initiatives

The thing is people develop their political conscience and preferences well before they have children or sometimes even realise that they are gay. In fact, unless a given party in a country is overtly hostile to homosexuality, then gay votes will be determined by the same factors as everyone else: namely upbringing, education, and the whole host of other intagibles. It's much how a lot of rather comfortably well off people genuinely believe the centre-left path is a better one, and a lot of poor people are drawn to the pro-business right wing.

[Sheilbh]

The thing is people develop their political conscience and preferences well before they have children or sometimes even realise that they are gay. In fact, unless a given party in a country is overtly hostile to homosexuality, then gay votes will be determined by the same factors as everyone else: namely upbringing, education, and the whole host of other intagibles. It's much how a lot of rather comfortably well off people genuinely believe the centre-left path is a better one, and a lot of poor people are drawn to the pro-business right wing.

Yeah.  I think Marty often projects his kind-of selfish (in the best possible sense) sort of classical liberalism onto gays as a whole.

It's worth saying that Cameron's pitch to the gays, before it sort-of fell apart, wasn't based on them not having kids but on being pro-family and including the gays in his definition of 'family'.  He said so explicitly more than once about how he wants the tax system to support people committing to each other whether gay or straight.  It was asking gays to vote conservatively.

[Martinus]

Btw, I wonder, is the phenomenon here with gays being often kind of conservative on some social issues (such as abortion, or law and order) repeated in other countries, or is this Polish catholic self-loathing?

[Sheilbh]

Btw, I wonder, is the phenomenon here with gays being often kind of conservative on some social issues (such as abortion, or law and order) repeated in other countries, or is this Polish catholic self-loathing?

I'm pretty conservative on those issues

[Martinus]

Btw, I wonder, is the phenomenon here with gays being often kind of conservative on some social issues (such as abortion, or law and order) repeated in other countries, or is this Polish catholic self-loathing?

I'm pretty conservative on those issues

Yeah but then you are a catholic. Catholic gays make for some of the better debate opponents of mine, admittedly.

[Valmy]

But I fear they won't.  In Western societies these days victim status gets you certain advantages, and I don't think we'll see gay rights groups give that up even if they get what they are demanding at the moment.

I know.  Just look at American conservatives.

Oh don't play coy.  You would think the entire educated establishment is out to destroy them.  There is always a war on this and an attack on that.   The Conservatives are always bemoaning what victims they are to the evil forces of whatever whatever.

Granted that is not all and hopefully not even a majority of Conservatives but you know what he is talking about.  Nobody whines about victimhood like Americans of all stripes.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'm glad you said that Valmy, I was thinking it needed to be said but, as a whiney Brit, prevaricated...motes and beams and all that 

[DGuller]

No, no, I mean if the GOP changed their position overnight, would it help or hurt them politically, in terms of votes.

Hurt them, of course.  Republicans have been pretty successful at appealing to people's intolerances to get them to vote against their interests.