Wikileaks - 2007: UN told to drop ‘Taiwan is part of China’ by US

[MadImmortalMan]

Well, their surging economy suggests they've held the Mandate of Heaven ever since Mao died.

Mandate of Heaven in 2011 = US military backing.

[Berkut]

I always find discussion like this just bizarre.

It is total doublespeak.

The reality is that Taiwan is a separate and soverein nation from China. Whether China wants to admit it, and whether Taiwan wants to admit it, that is the reality.

I don't know why people who are not involved in the political game of pretending like Taiwan is or is not sovereign insist on pretending like it is more than a game.

Eh convenient agreed upon fiction is the very basis of so many international agreements why does this one offend you so much?  If peace and positive relations are preserved by this fiction what difference does it make?  Sort of like how NATO is an alliance of equals.

I don't mind the fiction, I mind that when people like us who have no reason to pretend like the fiction is not fiction still do so.

[The Brain]

Well, their surging economy suggests they've held the Mandate of Heaven ever since Mao died.

Have you ever been on a mandate? No? Then STFU.

[Habsburg]

The Republic of China is NOT part of Communist China, mkay thx.

[Sheilbh]

I don't mind the fiction, I mind that when people like us who have no reason to pretend like the fiction is not fiction still do so.

They've not declared independence and, to the best of my knowledge, a large portion of Taiwanese society - especially those with family ties in mainland China - don't want to.  So it's not simply a fiction that they're not independent, they're not.  But there is an element of fiction to it and all politics really.  I think it's like seeing the TNC as the real government of Libya when they had the same right to claim that (control over the country) as Gadaffi.

[Berkut]

I don't mind the fiction, I mind that when people like us who have no reason to pretend like the fiction is not fiction still do so.

They've not declared independence and, to the best of my knowledge, a large portion of Taiwanese society - especially those with family ties in mainland China - don't want to.

So?

Whether they declare it or not, they are in fact independent.

  So it's not simply a fiction that they're not independent, they're not.

Uhhh, no, the fiction is that they are dependent, which they rather clearly are not. In every practical sense, they have an independent government and economy which Beijing has no direct control over.

  But there is an element of fiction to it and all politics really.  I think it's like seeing the TNC as the real government of Libya when they had the same right to claim that (control over the country) as Gadaffi.

In that case there is a disputed control. In this case, there is no dispute. China has no control over Tawian, except insofar as they are able to push them around in the same fashion all gigantic countries push little countries around.

Taiwan is just as independent in respect to China as South Korea, in every way other than rhetoric.

And I suspect most of the hesitance towards just coming out and saying so amongst most Taiwanese is not because they don't want to be indpendent, but simply because they don't want to take the risk that declaring the reality would entail.

[Barrister]

I don't mind the fiction, I mind that when people like us who have no reason to pretend like the fiction is not fiction still do so.

They've not declared independence and, to the best of my knowledge, a large portion of Taiwanese society - especially those with family ties in mainland China - don't want to.  So it's not simply a fiction that they're not independent, they're not.  But there is an element of fiction to it and all politics really.  I think it's like seeing the TNC as the real government of Libya when they had the same right to claim that (control over the country) as Gadaffi.

I thought a majority of Taiwanese were native Taiwanese however.

[Sheilbh]

So?

Whether they declare it or not, they are in fact independent.

I think independence is basically performative.  You've got to want and say it before other people should try and foist it on you. 

I think it's kind of like people saying Marcus Bachmann's gay.  It may be screamingly obvious to everyone else but it's rude to point it out and pointless unless he says it himself.

Taiwan is just as independent in respect to China as South Korea, in every way other than rhetoric.

I'd say Taiwan's not comparable to South Korea simply because the relation to the mainland and attitudes to China are, from my understanding, hugely important in Taiwanese politics.  It's more like a free Belarus without the formal independence.

And I suspect most of the hesitance towards just coming out and saying so amongst most Taiwanese is not because they don't want to be indpendent, but simply because they don't want to take the risk that declaring the reality would entail.

This could be it.  I suspect a lot of it's also the cross-straits trade and tourism and it just doesn't seem worth it.  They get to be functionally independent without, as you say, the risk.  But I imagine for some they also believe it.  I can't think of a comparable example where two countries share a language, a culture, a lot of history and are governed by opposing sides of a civil war.  Declaring independence would, I think, be quite a shift for Taiwanese identity from Chiang to some country that's separate and totally independent from China.

[Martinus]

Well, their surging economy suggests they've held the Mandate of Heaven ever since Mao died.

Mandate of Heaven in 2011 = US military backing.

I'm pretty sure that if the US attacked mainland China today, it would have been defeated.

On the other hand, if China decided to attack Taiwan, then I would be willing to bet good money the US troops there would withdraw after offering a token resistance to save face.

[Berkut]

Well, their surging economy suggests they've held the Mandate of Heaven ever since Mao died.

Mandate of Heaven in 2011 = US military backing.

I'm pretty sure that if the US attacked mainland China today, it would have been defeated.

On the other hand, if China decided to attack Taiwan, then I would be willing to bet good money the US troops there would withdraw after offering a token resistance to save face.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, Marty is stupid.  It's not American troops in Taiwan that defends the island.  It's the 7th fleet.  I don't think there's even a large US military force in Taiwan.

[Ed Anger]

[Ideologue]

This could be it.  I suspect a lot of it's also the cross-straits trade and tourism and it just doesn't seem worth it.  They get to be functionally independent without, as you say, the risk.  But I imagine for some they also believe it.  I can't think of a comparable example where two countries share a language, a culture, a lot of history and are governed by opposing sides of a civil war.

The British Empire. 

[Zoupa]

The religious wars in France also.

[Ideologue]

The religious wars in France also.

Man, I hate that event.  I WAS NICE TO THE PROTESTANTS.