Finally, the gub'mint is aware of the Canadian menace

[Barrister]

If a border guard has the power to put me on a no fly list - which they do - has the power to turn me away and ruin all my plans  - which they do - and the excercise that kind of power by asking the kind of asshead questions I was asked why would I ever want to put myself in that position.

All kinds of officials have the theoretical power to do all kinds of nasty things to you.  Once someone is arrested I have a ridiculous amount of power to make a person's life hell.  BUt I never abuse it.

Do you know of anyone who has been put on a no fly list?  Do you know of anyone who was turned away?


Jacob, I am surprised to hear you've been told you couldn't enter the US.  Did they state any reason why?

[Maximus]

Looks like Berkut is doing his best to avenge himself for being wound up about his garden house.

It is a little bizarre.

[garbon]

BUt I never abuse it.

Unfortunately(?), you aren't every gov official.

[Barrister]

Why?

I am not going to tell you for three reasons:

1. It'd be rather incautious to discuss specific details on a permanent medium such as the internet.
2. You're not engaging this discussion in any kind of good faith.
3. It's none of your business.

Thats fair enough.  But I would note that there are legitimate reasons to turn someone away at the border.  There are some that may not be fair to you personally (perhaps due to people you were travelling with), but the mere fact of a person being turned away is not by itself proof of terrible treatment.

[Jacob]

Please do ask that someone. Then I will proceed to cast aspersions and doubts over your acquaintance and tell you what *really* happened, just like you do.

From his demeanour and the discussion in this thread I'm guessing that Berkut is thinking being a border guard sounds very attractive.

[Berkut]

Berk, you have a point that "unpleasantness" is impossible to quantify and difficult to distinguish sometimes from simple prejudice.

But I cannot so easily dismiss numerous accounts from different people, many of whom are *not* the types who typically revel in "...the herd mentality "us vs them" angst about the Big Meany near dictatorship US ..." - such as my own parents. They go across the border all the time - more than once a month - to visit my brother who lives in the US; being retired, they want to see their grandchildren. They are not your "anti US" types. They tell me it is more and more of a hassle, with definite attitute issues an the part of the guards becomming more frequent. They are retired grandparents, my dad a former professor, kindly and soft-spoken - hardly the sort likely to cop an attitude with border guards.

Other people say the same. In fact almost everyone says it. Why should I not believe it?

Two things:

1. I am not saying you should not believe it - I am saying getting hysterical about things that haven't actually happened is silly and betrays a deeper issue. They *might* have turned me away! They *might* take a disliking to me! Golly, this only happens in the US, of course!

2. Just because everyone says something is so, doesn't make it so. This kind of "groupthink" is common, in fact, and self-reinforcing.

Perhaps the incidences of "hassle" is really not that different, but the perception of the US has declined considerably, and more specifically, the US government, such that now people notice it and comment on it a lot more. More people comment, more people notice, they comment more, suddenly it seems like this epidemic, where in reality, maybe little has actually changed.

Most of the time crossing the border is uneventful. Sometimes you are unlucky, and your car is the 14th in line, so it gets to be the car that is pulled out and searched. Maybe now it is every ten cars instead of every 20. Maybe now there are 50% more people trying to cross, so in fact it all seems more time consuming and a greater hassle.

Or maybe it is really the case that in fact the US Border Patrol is going out of their way to make visitors not want to come to the US. So far, I haven't seen anything but anecdote and hearsay to suggest that the issue is anything worthy of the hysteria though.

[Berkut]

I wonder what the actual story is here - dad told some border guard to go fuck himself or something?

I actually know someone who is a border guard. I think I will ask her how often they "take a dislike to people" and "fuck them up" just because they asked for some courtesy.

Please do ask that someone. Then I will proceed to cast aspersions and doubts over your acquaintance and tell you what *really* happened, just like you do. 

I didn't tell you what happened - how would I know, since I wasn't there?

[Jacob]

Jacob, I am surprised to hear you've been told you couldn't enter the US.  Did they state any reason why?

Yes they did, in each case.

[garbon]

It is a little bizarre.

I think he is upset because he perceives that the US is being single out for being particularly bad.

[Berkut]

Why?

I am not going to tell you for three reasons:

1. It'd be rather incautious to discuss specific details on a permanent medium such as the internet.
2. You're not engaging this discussion in any kind of good faith.
3. It's none of your business.

1. Nobody knows your name, and it seems relevant - perhaps you were turned away for a perfectly valid reason.

2. Of course - those who don't agree with you clearly must not be discussing things in "good faith".

3. None of this is any of my business, or your business, or anyones business. What does that have to do with anything?

I will just note that when asked for specifics of your being "turned away" you refused to answer. talk about not discussing things in good faith!

[Berkut]

Please do ask that someone. Then I will proceed to cast aspersions and doubts over your acquaintance and tell you what *really* happened, just like you do.

From his demeanour and the discussion in this thread I'm guessing that Berkut is thinking being a border guard sounds very attractive.

That is some good faith discussion you have going here. Ad hom attack always is a great way to show what good faith you have in honest discussion.

[Barrister]

Perhaps the incidences of "hassle" is really not that different, but the perception of the US has declined considerably, and more specifically, the US government, such that now people notice it and comment on it a lot more. More people comment, more people notice, they comment more, suddenly it seems like this epidemic, where in reality, maybe little has actually changed.

Most of the time crossing the border is uneventful. Sometimes you are unlucky, and your car is the 14th in line, so it gets to be the car that is pulled out and searched. Maybe now it is every ten cars instead of every 20. Maybe now there are 50% more people trying to cross, so in fact it all seems more time consuming and a greater hassle.

Or maybe it is really the case that in fact the US Border Patrol is going out of their way to make visitors not want to come to the US. So far, I haven't seen anything but anecdote and hearsay to suggest that the issue is anything worthy of the hysteria though.

There is more than just perception at work here.  The US has taken numerous steps to tighten its borders (including its Canadian border) since 9/11.  It has made it more difficult to get into the US.

One of my colleagues was just at a joint enforcement conference in Alaska, and met with Alaskan DAs.  He said that they spent a huge amount of time talking about terrorism - and this is Alaska, not New York.  On the ground Alaska deals with the same crime issues as we do.

[Berkut]

It is a little bizarre.

I think he is upset because he perceives that the US is being single out for being particularly bad.

Not at all, actually - more just find the hysteria people engage in over things that they imagine to happen, then spread that hysteria rather interesting.

"Oh, did you hear what happened to CC at the border! They almosst didn't let him in!"
"Oh really, well I heard about this guy who was once turned away three time!"
"Oh my gosh! It is getting so bad!

Etc., etc.

[Berkut]

Perhaps the incidences of "hassle" is really not that different, but the perception of the US has declined considerably, and more specifically, the US government, such that now people notice it and comment on it a lot more. More people comment, more people notice, they comment more, suddenly it seems like this epidemic, where in reality, maybe little has actually changed.

Most of the time crossing the border is uneventful. Sometimes you are unlucky, and your car is the 14th in line, so it gets to be the car that is pulled out and searched. Maybe now it is every ten cars instead of every 20. Maybe now there are 50% more people trying to cross, so in fact it all seems more time consuming and a greater hassle.

Or maybe it is really the case that in fact the US Border Patrol is going out of their way to make visitors not want to come to the US. So far, I haven't seen anything but anecdote and hearsay to suggest that the issue is anything worthy of the hysteria though.

There is more than just perception at work here.  The US has taken numerous steps to tighten its borders (including its Canadian border) since 9/11.  It has made it more difficult to get into the US.

One of my colleagues was just at a joint enforcement conference in Alaska, and met with Alaskan DAs.  He said that they spent a huge amount of time talking about terrorism - and this is Alaska, not New York.  On the ground Alaska deals with the same crime issues as we do.

There is no question that US border security has been stepped up considerably since 9/11. The question is whether or not this has really had the rather astounding practical effects for the average person crossing the border that everyone is talking about.

I would bet, like I said earlier, this is 30% real increased hassle, and 70% bullshit. Or maybe 40/60.

I agree that there is more than perception at work - the question is how much more. It is unfortunate that the discussion had to become just another ad hom pissing match once I started asking for actual  or specific examples.

[Ed Anger]

The quality of strippers in Windsor has declined slightly since 2001.