Finally, the gub'mint is aware of the Canadian menace

[Barrister]

Wow - Jacob you're starting to push me over to the BArkut side of things.

I really don't think discussions about how border guards can "fuck you up" really adds anything to the debate.  What does that even mean for starters?  Assuming a non-corrupt country like the US, about the only risks you face going through a border are to have your goods searched.  And while that is a pain in the ass, unless you're foolish enough to try and smuggle contraband it is only an inconvenience.

They have the right to deny you entry, but honestly short of having a criminal record I've never heard or anyone, ever, being denied entry without some justification.  And plenty of people with criminal records routinely cross over to the US.

There are plenty of new requirements and restrictions being palced on people crossing the border and those can and should be discussed.  But discussing times where you feel "unsettled" or "utter helplessness" isn't very productive.

[Berkut]

but some people, myself included, are not spending out leisure dollars there because the border makes it not worth it. 

Fair enough. I suppose if being asked questions and imagining horrible things happening (these things enver actually happen of course, except to someone third cousins sisters brothers wife's best friends boss) causes some kind of emotional stress, you should probably avoid it.

That's not really a spite thing, and less of a fear about things going wrong than simply an aversion to hassles;

Sure. I think the entire thing is about 70% bullshit, 30% actual hassle. Just a way for people to express the herd mentality "us vs them" angst about the Big Meany near dictatorship US where the hassle is so great that it isn't even worth dealing with.

Just look at all these anecdotal examples we have of people traveling to the US and being turned back! Oh wait, I mean they COULD be turned back. Hypothetically.

How many times did that happen to you Jacob?

[Berkut]

There are plenty of new requirements and restrictions being palced on people crossing the border and those can and should be discussed.  But discussing times where you feel "unsettled" or "utter helplessness" isn't very productive.

Actually, it is very productive. You just have to know what they are trying to produce.

[Berkut]

Although mistakenly said otherwise, part of the unpleasant bit is a fear that it would escalate. If a bunch more Canadians feel that way, because they perceive that border guards are being more uptight...then I don't see anything wrong with that.

I travel to the US a fair bit for work.  I don't have a choice in the matter.  Once there, I quite enjoy the US and it's a country I wouldn't mind spending time and money in for leisure.  However, my experiences crossing the border has caused me to decide that I don't want to deal with the hassle, so I'll go elsewhere. 

So Jacob, how many times have you traveled to the US, and what was the pervasive "hassle" that made it not worth it?

[crazy canuck]

Wow - Jacob you're starting to push me over to the BArkut side of things.

I really don't think discussions about how border guards can "fuck you up" really adds anything to the debate. 

If a border guard has the power to put me on a no fly list - which they do - has the power to turn me away and ruin all my plans  - which they do - and the excercise that kind of power by asking the kind of asshead questions I was asked why would I ever want to put myself in that position.

In other words, while there are a lot of nice things to see and do in the States, there are also nice things to do in other parts of the world and I can get to those places without any of the hassle of entering the US.  Therefore, the US loses out.  Pretty simple.

[Oexmelin]

Wow - Jacob you're starting to push me over to the BArkut side of things.

I really don't think discussions about how border guards can "fuck you up" really adds anything to the debate.  What does that even mean for starters? 

My father, a truck driver, crosses the border weekly. «Fucking you up», in his case, meant that the time he lost it and finally asked for a little curtesy, after countless humiliations, «hassle» and «bullshit», he was detained for five hours under spurious «inspections» and missed his delivery time. Other cases of people I know involve being searched thoroughly and missing the connecting flights (which you have to pay for).

[Berkut]

Wow - Jacob you're starting to push me over to the BArkut side of things.

I really don't think discussions about how border guards can "fuck you up" really adds anything to the debate. 

If a border guard has the power to put me on a no fly list - which they do - has the power to turn me away and ruin all my plans  - which they do - and the excercise that kind of power by asking the kind of asshead questions I was asked why would I ever want to put myself in that position.

So asking you questions is "exercising that kind of power" that is the same as "turning you away and ruining your plans" or putting you on a "no fly list"?

Hysterical much?

[Jacob]

How many times did that happen to you Jacob?

I've been turned back three times (though luckily, in all cases it's been a "not going to let you in" rather than a "denied entry" which has been entered in the database - because those apparently make the hassle permanent).  One of those times the guard went to great lengths explaining that he could, if he felt so inclined, take the car out back and completely tear it apart looking for drugs (though this had nothing to do with the stated reason for refusing us entry).  And no, he was of course under no obligation to put it back together or not cut up the seats and so on.

I've had border guards be jerks to me a lot more times than that.

That said, I have also had numerous US border guards be pleasant and professional or simply efficiently professional as did their thing.

[Berkut]

Wow - Jacob you're starting to push me over to the BArkut side of things.

I really don't think discussions about how border guards can "fuck you up" really adds anything to the debate.  What does that even mean for starters? 

My father, a truck driver, crosses the border weekly. «Fucking you up», in his case, meant that the time he lost it and finally asked for a little curtesy, after countless humiliations, «hassle» and «bullshit», he was detained for five hours under spurious «inspections» and missed his delivery time. Other cases of people I know involve being searched thoroughly and missing the connecting flights (which you have to pay for).

Oh my, countless humiliations! COUNTLESS!

"Spurious" inspections! Thorough searches! All happening to someone else, of course.

I wonder what the actual story is here - dad told some border guard to go fuck himself or something?

I actually know someone who is a border guard. I think I will ask her how often they "take a dislike to people" and "fuck them up" just because they asked for some courtesy.

[Berkut]

How many times did that happen to you Jacob?

I've been turned back three times (though luckily, in all cases it's been a "not going to let you in" rather than a "denied entry" which has been entered in the database - because those apparently make the hassle permanent). 

Why?

[Jacob]

Looks like Berkut is doing his best to avenge himself for being wound up about his garden house.

[Malthus]

but some people, myself included, are not spending out leisure dollars there because the border makes it not worth it.

Fair enough. I suppose if being asked questions and imagining horrible things happening (these things enver actually happen of course, except to someone third cousins sisters brothers wife's best friends boss) causes some kind of emotional stress, you should probably avoid it.

That's not really a spite thing, and less of a fear about things going wrong than simply an aversion to hassles;

Sure. I think the entire thing is about 70% bullshit, 30% actual hassle. Just a way for people to express the herd mentality "us vs them" angst about the Big Meany near dictatorship US where the hassle is so great that it isn't even worth dealing with.

Just look at all these anecdotal examples we have of people traveling to the US and being turned back! Oh wait, I mean they COULD be turned back. Hypothetically.

How many times did that happen to you Jacob?

Berk, you have a point that "unpleasantness" is impossible to quantify and difficult to distinguish sometimes from simple prejudice.

But I cannot so easily dismiss numerous accounts from different people, many of whom are *not* the types who typically revel in "...the herd mentality "us vs them" angst about the Big Meany near dictatorship US ..." - such as my own parents. They go across the border all the time - more than once a month - to visit my brother who lives in the US; being retired, they want to see their grandchildren. They are not your "anti US" types. They tell me it is more and more of a hassle, with definite attitute issues an the part of the guards becomming more frequent. They are retired grandparents, my dad a former professor, kindly and soft-spoken - hardly the sort likely to cop an attitude with border guards.

Other people say the same. In fact almost everyone says it. Why should I not believe it?

[Berkut]

.  One of those times the guard went to great lengths explaining that he could, if he felt so inclined, take the car out back and completely tear it apart looking for drugs (though this had nothing to do with the stated reason for refusing us entry). 

But you knew before you got up that morning that in fact border guards do have the power to do just that - why is it so terrible that he said so and then did not do it?

Are you arguing that in fact they should not be allowed to search cars for drugs, or turn people away for whatever reason?

Would it have been better if he had actually done it?

[Oexmelin]

I wonder what the actual story is here - dad told some border guard to go fuck himself or something?

I actually know someone who is a border guard. I think I will ask her how often they "take a dislike to people" and "fuck them up" just because they asked for some courtesy.

Please do ask that someone. Then I will proceed to cast aspersions and doubts over your acquaintance and tell you what *really* happened, just like you do. 

[Jacob]

Why?

I am not going to tell you for three reasons:

1. It'd be rather incautious to discuss specific details on a permanent medium such as the internet.
2. You're not engaging this discussion in any kind of good faith.
3. It's none of your business.