Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[dps]

It's clear you don't understand what the "tyranny of the majority" means.

I understand what it means.  I was not aware that providing free education was a form of tyranny if you do not do it exactly like each person would like.  If they had a law FORCING everybody to only be educated in French well yeah that would be tyranny.

I guess I thought tyranny was about coercion not providing services in a not entirely satisfactory way.

I generally take a rather dim view of many of the polices supported by French-speaking Canadian, but Quebec failing to provide schooling for immigrants in a language other than French doesn't seem like something to get outraged about.

[Valmy]

First, let's eliminate this whole "if the government provides it, it's free" meme. Nothing is free. It is paid for by taxation by citizens. What this means is that a very sizable minority of citizens is paying taxes for education, but the content of that education is being set by the majority.

So unless Texas provides Spanish schools at taxpayer expense to our immigrants that is tyranny?  Granted it does not translate just perfectly because Texas Education is so decentralized.  But I certainly am not interested in public money going to educate people in such a way they will not be fully functional Texan adults.  That requires a knowledge of English.  I guess I can see myself thinking the same thing if I was from Quebec.

The accredation thing only looks like it applies to receiving public funds, not being accredited to teach period.

[Oexmelin]

Oh noes, an factual assertion made by you about Quebec isn't actually correct.

Of course - you and I can play that game, time and again, finding websites with missing translations. But I fail to see how it invalidates what I have said. The absence of an English version on a website - or, indeed, the official unilingualism of Quebec - does not mean that you will not receive English services.

(As for my own example, from E-Laws, :"Outre les versions anglaises des règlements bilingues, l'interface anglaise offre également ce qui suit:    Les codifications des règlements unilingues anglais de la plupart des lois d'intérêt public; Les règlements unilingues anglais tels que déposés depuis le 1er janvier 2000, etc."  http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/WebText/french/elaws_webtext_FAQs_f.htm#24).

[Malthus]

It's clear you don't understand what the "tyranny of the majority" means.

I understand what it means.  I was not aware that providing free education was a form of tyranny if you do not do it exactly like each person would like.  If they had a law FORCING everybody to only be educated in French well yeah that would be tyranny.

I guess I thought tyranny was about coercion not providing services in a not entirely satisfactory way.

I generally take a rather dim view of many of the polices supported by French-speaking Canadian, but Quebec failing to provide schooling for immigrants in a language other than French doesn't seem like something to get outraged about.

It's something *they*, the immigrants, dislike - because they believe it harms their prospects.

[Valmy]

It's something *they*, the immigrants, dislike - because they believe it harms their prospects.

So I was wrong and the Francophone schools do not teach English?

I keep hoping one of you Quebeckers will pop in and say something about how awesome/crappy English instruction in Quebec is or one of you other Canadians.

[Malthus]

First, let's eliminate this whole "if the government provides it, it's free" meme. Nothing is free. It is paid for by taxation by citizens. What this means is that a very sizable minority of citizens is paying taxes for education, but the content of that education is being set by the majority.

So unless Texas provides Spanish schools at taxpayer expense to our immigrants that is tyranny?  Granted it does not translate just perfectly because Texas Education is so decentralized.  But I certainly am not interested in public money going to educate people in such a way they will not be fully functional Texan adults.  That requires a knowledge of English.  I guess I can see myself thinking the same thing if I was from Quebec.

The accredation thing only looks like it applies to receiving public funds, not being accredited to teach period.

Would being educated in English make these immigrants non-functional? What enrages some Quebec politicians is that this is in fact not true, and they wish it was!

In point of fact, the majority of immigrant citizens prefer having their kids educated in English, and they are acting rationally to do so exactly *because* it will enable their kids to function *perfectly fine*.

[crazy canuck]

I keep hoping one of you Quebeckers will pop in and say something about how awesome/crappy English instruction in Quebec is or one of you other Canadians.

You can find all about here from the Quebec Government itself.

In 1977, Québec's National Assembly adopted the Charter of the French Language (Bill 101), which states that all children must be educated in French until the end of their secondary studies, whether in a public school or a subsidized private school.

For those students who are not fluent in French, the Ministère de l'Éducation, du Loisir et du Sport du Québec (MELS) offers a variety of language learning support measures in cooperation with the school boards, which dispense preschool, elementary school and secondary school education.

The Charter does not apply to Québec's colleges and universities or non-subsidized private institutions.

The Charter does provide for certain special cases where children are allowed to pursue their studies in English at public or subsidized private schools.

read on for the details

http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/daasa/rens/banque/fiches/f95a.htm

[Valmy]

http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/daasa/rens/banque/fiches/f95a.htm

That doesn't seem to say anything about how well people come out of the Francophone school system knowing English.

[Valmy]

Would being educated in English make these immigrants non-functional? What enrages some Quebec politicians is that this is in fact not true, and they wish it was!

In point of fact, the majority of immigrant citizens prefer having their kids educated in English, and they are acting rationally to do so exactly *because* it will enable their kids to function *perfectly fine*.

That makes no sense.  How would ignorance of French be perfectly fine in a place where it is required for virtually every profession?

[Barrister]

Would being educated in English make these immigrants non-functional? What enrages some Quebec politicians is that this is in fact not true, and they wish it was!

In point of fact, the majority of immigrant citizens prefer having their kids educated in English, and they are acting rationally to do so exactly *because* it will enable their kids to function *perfectly fine*.

That makes no sense.  How would ignorance of French be perfectly fine in a place where it is required for virtually every profession?

Because English opens up opportunities in the rest of the country (plus you can still get a number of jobs in Quebec knowing English only).

[Valmy]

Because English opens up opportunities in the rest of the country (plus you can still get a number of jobs in Quebec knowing English only).

Again do you learn English in the Francophone system?  Does it work enough to function in English?  I have been asking that question for awhile now.  Oex seemed to imply that, in fact, it does.

[Malthus]

Would being educated in English make these immigrants non-functional? What enrages some Quebec politicians is that this is in fact not true, and they wish it was!

In point of fact, the majority of immigrant citizens prefer having their kids educated in English, and they are acting rationally to do so exactly *because* it will enable their kids to function *perfectly fine*.

That makes no sense.  How would ignorance of French be perfectly fine in a place where it is required for virtually every profession?

Nonetheless, immigrants are voting with their choices.

Perhaps because they can get jobs anywhere else in Canada easily and still get some in Quebec knowing English only, the trade-off seems okay.

Perhaps being educated in English in a province where French is a majority language doesn't actually end up with them being ignorant of French? After all, you appear to be pushing the line that being educated in French doesn't mean ignorance of English, no?

[Valmy]

Perhaps being educated in English in a province where French is a majority language doesn't actually end up with them being ignorant of French? After all, you appear to be pushing the line that being educated in French doesn't mean ignorance of English, no?

I am asking the line yes.  If it is the case that you learn both then why is it an issue at all?  But this is North America.  It is alot easier to learn English you are surrounded by it.

In short: I bet that a larger percentage come out of Francophone instruction bilingual than come out of Anglophone bilingual.

[Malthus]

Perhaps being educated in English in a province where French is a majority language doesn't actually end up with them being ignorant of French? After all, you appear to be pushing the line that being educated in French doesn't mean ignorance of English, no?

I am asking the line yes.  If it is the case that you learn both then why is it an issue at all?  But this is North America.  It is alot easier to learn English you are surrounded by it.

It also means that, if given a choice, it is the language you'd want to know *best* exactly because it is the most useful and functional to *you*.

That's, in a nutshell, what has certain persons in Quebec up in arms - they fear that, given a choice, immigrants will (in their own rational self-interest, mind) prefer learning English to French, where their first language is neither.

That's why the "oh, its' for the kids own good, like stopping parents teaching their kids something obscure like Swahili" line is such an obvious, glaring red herring. The Quebec policy has nothing to do with the self-interest of the kids, and everything to do with the majority wishing to preserve its majority status.

The issue is this: is it right for a majority to impose measures upon the children of immigrants contrary to the expressed interest of the parents *and* in fact contrary to their actual self interest - where the "pressing societal purpose" is to ensure that a cultural majority remains a cultural majority?

To my mind, the answer is clearly "no". Individual interests should trump. 

[Valmy]

The issue is this: is it right for a majority to impose measures upon the children of immigrants contrary to the expressed interest of the parents *and* in fact contrary to their actual self interest - where the "pressing societal purpose" is to ensure that a cultural majority remains a cultural majority?

Ok what you are claiming basically calls the entire US educational system unjust.  In fact having an education system at all is unjust.  What exactly would a just educational system look like?  I have never heard that allowing the majority to shape public education was something that should not happen.  Who should shape it?  Hans' unelected God-Emperors?

And further again...how is it contrary to somebody's best interests?