Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[Razgovory]

This is the statement you choose to turn against Tim on?  That's ridiculous.  Of course there should be a world language.

It should be English, but I only say so because it's the language of the best societies on Earth, and I already speak it.

I really don't give a shit.  I swear to learn a standard version of Icelandic and only use GMT if everyone else will agree to do the same and I never have to fuck around with languages, locales, and time zones again.

Nope.  I'm not learning Icelandic.

[Razgovory]

I mean I suppose it may be inevitable that one day we'll all be... speaking Anglo-Cantonese, but that doesn't mean we should welcome it.

Anglo-Mandarin.

And why shouldn't we welcome it? If everyone on Earth spoke the same language it would be a wonderful thing.

Mandarin.  Lets use something that be typed with a standard keyboard.

[viper37]

One hardly needs to agree with Grallon or Slargos to believe that unique local cultures, traditions, and yes languages, help make the world a more interesting place and deserve to be protected.

I mean I suppose it may be inevitable that one day we'll all be eating identical Big Macs, listening to intechangeable pop music, speaking Anglo-Cantonese, but that doesn't mean we should welcome it.

You do know that our Canadian government goes to great lengths to try and promote and protect a unique Canadian identity?  Are you opposed to that?

And to bring it full circle, the reason I can understand what our Quebecois friends are going through is the same reason I loved the opening post - I saw it as an effort to promote that unique Canadian identity to bring back the RCAF and RCN, and understand why Quebec wants to promote their own sense of identity.

The problem I see is there is little give and take.  The Anglophones seem to have accepted the Francophones demands and have attempted to be inclusive (not always successfully).  The French speakers on the other hand, have little interest in protecting minority groups in Quebec.  Grallon has no desire to accommodate Muslims, and I doubt Cantonese is a protected language in Quebec.  There seems to a demand that immigrants drop their cultural identity as quickly as possible and become part of Quebec's French culture while at the same time proudly resisting the anglo mono-culture.  You can't have it both ways.  The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

I wonder if the situation was reversed, if the Francophones we the majority in Canada and the Anglo-phones were the minority would they be so interested in preserving the quaint language and customs of their English speaking cousins?

One advice: before you speak bullshit, try to learn your subject

[Zoupa]

only in so far as it ties in with a proud past.

The Kingdom of Portugal?

:p

If you want to, ya. longest alliance still in  existance, IIRC

I thought that was the Auld Alliance. Omni modo fidelis and all that.

[Valmy]

Oh?  The French seem to take pride in resisting Anglo inclusions in their vocabulary.  Things like the headscarf ban and such seems to suggest they very interested in promoting "Frenchness".

Only to the extent every other Euro nation feels about their culture.  France is a nation state...its very existance is based on being the political arm of a Euro nation.  It has no other reason to exist.  France is actually a bit more open to minorities than some since their identity is not as ethnically based and more cultural. 

But anyway the headscarf ban is related to the French feelings about religion that stem from their long history.  They think religion should be private and any public display of it is deeply offensive to them.  But Turkey did the same thing.  Maybe speakers of Turkish and French are exactly the same?

[Razgovory]

One hardly needs to agree with Grallon or Slargos to believe that unique local cultures, traditions, and yes languages, help make the world a more interesting place and deserve to be protected.

I mean I suppose it may be inevitable that one day we'll all be eating identical Big Macs, listening to intechangeable pop music, speaking Anglo-Cantonese, but that doesn't mean we should welcome it.

You do know that our Canadian government goes to great lengths to try and promote and protect a unique Canadian identity?  Are you opposed to that?

And to bring it full circle, the reason I can understand what our Quebecois friends are going through is the same reason I loved the opening post - I saw it as an effort to promote that unique Canadian identity to bring back the RCAF and RCN, and understand why Quebec wants to promote their own sense of identity.

The problem I see is there is little give and take.  The Anglophones seem to have accepted the Francophones demands and have attempted to be inclusive (not always successfully).  The French speakers on the other hand, have little interest in protecting minority groups in Quebec.  Grallon has no desire to accommodate Muslims, and I doubt Cantonese is a protected language in Quebec.  There seems to a demand that immigrants drop their cultural identity as quickly as possible and become part of Quebec's French culture while at the same time proudly resisting the anglo mono-culture.  You can't have it both ways.  The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

I wonder if the situation was reversed, if the Francophones we the majority in Canada and the Anglo-phones were the minority would they be so interested in preserving the quaint language and customs of their English speaking cousins?

One advice: before you speak bullshit, try to learn your subject

Is Cantonese protected in Quebec?  Must English be more predominate in private signage then French in Alberta?

[Razgovory]

Oh?  The French seem to take pride in resisting Anglo inclusions in their vocabulary.  Things like the headscarf ban and such seems to suggest they very interested in promoting "Frenchness".

Only to the extent every other Euro nation feels about their culture.  France is a nation state...its very existance is based on being the political arm of a Euro nation.  It has no other reason to exist.  France is actually a bit more open to minorities than some since their identity is not as ethnically based and more cultural. 

But anyway the headscarf ban is related to the French feelings about religion that stem from their long history.  They think religion should be private and any public display of it is deeply offensive to them.  But Turkey did the same thing.  Maybe speakers of Turkish and French are exactly the same?

I dunno?  Do the English do such things?  Do the Germans?  Do they feel so strongly about their culture that someone displaying another cultural artifact is "Deeply offensive" to them?

[Valmy]

I dunno?  Do the English do such things?  Do the Germans?  Do they feel so strongly about their culture that someone displaying another cultural artifact is "Deeply offensive" to them?

Yes nobody else in the entire world is offended by anything.  Only French speakers ever get offended.

Anyway they banned it as a religious symbol not a cultural one.  They see it as a breach of the separation of church and state.  Like some Americans find nativity scenes on public grounds offensive.

[viper37]

You've been systematically abused since 1763?

Royal Proclamation: Catholics are forbidden to work for the colonial government.  English is the only language allowed in public institution.  Seigneurial regime and Clergy are forbidden to raise taxes.
The Act of Quebec corrected some of these, face with the impending revolution to the South.
Rebellion of 1837-1838: After a few minor skirmishes, the survivors were rounded up in a Church and burnt alive.
Lord Durham's report: French Canadians are a people without history and without future and must be assimilated for their own good.
The Act of Union: English is the official language in the parliament, Lower Canada (Quebec) absorbs the debt of Upper Canada (Ontario), both colonies are joined with one parliament, equal weight to both even if Quebec is more populous.  Rep by pop will become a popular movement in the years to come as British immigration is, obviously, favored, so that anglos can maintain control.
The Confederation:  Much, much, corruption with this one.  All accross the colonies, many people strood to gain from the construction of a railroad.  And the obvious reason to unite was, obviously, to prevent Americans from grabbing British territory.
The Confederation was an imperfect compromise wich mostly favored Ontario.  Protectionnist laws destroyed the economy of the Maritimes and dealt a severe blow to Quebec as well.
Louis Riel:  Read about it.  English settlers trying to impose their rules and expel the French Métis from there.  They relocated to Saskatchewan, where again British and Canadian milicia troops were sent to dislodge them.
Manitoba School's act: English education only, no more French.  Soon, Ontario and New Brunswick had similar legislation.  For years to come, french public education was forbidden and the French speaking citizens were denied their rights.  French Canadians then felt better off moving to New England than going for Manitoba, wich was the intended result.
1982 Constitution: The Constitution was drafted in one night to exclude Quebec, to make it unaceptable.  The Supreme court has since ruled that the Constitution applies to Quebec, even though we didn't ratify it.
Sault-Ste-Marie: An Ontarian city that decided it would become unilingual French.  This was not racism, unlike, oh say, requiring a french sign outside a busines...
Let's burn the flag:  A bunch of Ontarians happily burn and tremple the Quebec flag in front of the cameras.
Reform Party:  Once the French numbers had sufficiently dwindled, you would see the emergence of groups of people saying it makes no sense to keep official bilinguism
Lake Meech Accord:  Not much there.  Rejected because Canadians felt it was too much for Quebec, what with calling Quebec a distinct society...  One Empire, one people.
Charlottetown Accord:  Some half ass accord designed to keep Quebec in line.  Was rejected by English Canada because it was again too much for Quebec.
Fiscal Imbalance: The Federal government kept taxing us but cut transfers to the provinces.  Has since been partially repaired by the Conservatives, all that is left would be to make it permanent, but no Canadian government would do that.
Let's bring back the Colonial Army:  as a slap in the face of all those who tought were fighting for Canada, the government has decided to rebrand the army, to make it official it belongs to the British monarchy and not the Canadian people.

There's a lot of griveances in the past.  But I'm trying to build for the future, make a strong Quebec inside a strong Canada.
I don't believe my people have what it takes to achieve true independance from Canada, but I don't believe we should stay in Canada "because they like us".  Neil's point of view is the dominant one in Canada.  He can be fun to read, but when you know it's real, it's less fun.

[viper37]

I dunno?  Do the English do such things?  Do the Germans?  Do they feel so strongly about their culture that someone displaying another cultural artifact is "Deeply offensive" to them?

Yes nobody else in the entire world is offended by anything.  Only French speakers ever get offended.

I remember... Once upon a time, in the old Languish forum, prior to the first moves, I posted in French.  Oh boy. Was there complaints... Even Neil locked the first thread, before I got clarification from the Man himself.  You guys keep whining as soon as someone uses a language other than English.

And FYI, lots of people defend their cultural identity, even the Canadians who feel threatend by the Americans.

[Barrister]

You have dredged up every possible slight against the French, given it the worst possible interpretation, then presented it here.

And I thought only Raz was trolling in this thread.

[Malthus]

You've been systematically abused since 1763?

Royal Proclamation: Catholics are forbidden to work for the colonial government.  English is the only language allowed in public institution.  Seigneurial regime and Clergy are forbidden to raise taxes.
The Act of Quebec corrected some of these, face with the impending revolution to the South.
Rebellion of 1837-1838: After a few minor skirmishes, the survivors were rounded up in a Church and burnt alive.
Lord Durham's report: French Canadians are a people without history and without future and must be assimilated for their own good.
The Act of Union: English is the official language in the parliament, Lower Canada (Quebec) absorbs the debt of Upper Canada (Ontario), both colonies are joined with one parliament, equal weight to both even if Quebec is more populous.  Rep by pop will become a popular movement in the years to come as British immigration is, obviously, favored, so that anglos can maintain control.
The Confederation:  Much, much, corruption with this one.  All accross the colonies, many people strood to gain from the construction of a railroad.  And the obvious reason to unite was, obviously, to prevent Americans from grabbing British territory.
The Confederation was an imperfect compromise wich mostly favored Ontario.  Protectionnist laws destroyed the economy of the Maritimes and dealt a severe blow to Quebec as well.
Louis Riel:  Read about it.  English settlers trying to impose their rules and expel the French Métis from there.  They relocated to Saskatchewan, where again British and Canadian milicia troops were sent to dislodge them.
Manitoba School's act: English education only, no more French.  Soon, Ontario and New Brunswick had similar legislation.  For years to come, french public education was forbidden and the French speaking citizens were denied their rights.  French Canadians then felt better off moving to New England than going for Manitoba, wich was the intended result.
1982 Constitution: The Constitution was drafted in one night to exclude Quebec, to make it unaceptable.  The Supreme court has since ruled that the Constitution applies to Quebec, even though we didn't ratify it.
Sault-Ste-Marie: An Ontarian city that decided it would become unilingual French.  This was not racism, unlike, oh say, requiring a french sign outside a busines...
Let's burn the flag:  A bunch of Ontarians happily burn and tremple the Quebec flag in front of the cameras.
Reform Party:  Once the French numbers had sufficiently dwindled, you would see the emergence of groups of people saying it makes no sense to keep official bilinguism
Lake Meech Accord:  Not much there.  Rejected because Canadians felt it was too much for Quebec, what with calling Quebec a distinct society...  One Empire, one people.
Charlottetown Accord:  Some half ass accord designed to keep Quebec in line.  Was rejected by English Canada because it was again too much for Quebec.
Fiscal Imbalance: The Federal government kept taxing us but cut transfers to the provinces.  Has since been partially repaired by the Conservatives, all that is left would be to make it permanent, but no Canadian government would do that.
Let's bring back the Colonial Army:  as a slap in the face of all those who tought were fighting for Canada, the government has decided to rebrand the army, to make it official it belongs to the British monarchy and not the Canadian people.

There's a lot of griveances in the past.  But I'm trying to build for the future, make a strong Quebec inside a strong Canada.
I don't believe my people have what it takes to achieve true independance from Canada, but I don't believe we should stay in Canada "because they like us".  Neil's point of view is the dominant one in Canada.  He can be fun to read, but when you know it's real, it's less fun.

You are missing his point. He's questioning that "you" are old enough to have personally experoienced any of this.

As for equalization payments, Quebec gets more than all other provoinces combined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada

Quebec ($7.815 billion)
Ontario ($2.200 billion)
Manitoba ($1.666 billion)
New Brunswick ($1.483 billion)
Nova Scotia ($1.167 billion)
Prince Edward Island ($329 million)

I won't go through the rest pof your list - suffice it to say that the older the point, the more resonable a grievance it is; the recent ones are all either extremely petty or misstated, or both.

[Valmy]

Glad to see Ile St. Jean getting so much cash.

[Viking]

You have dredged up every possible slight against the French, given it the worst possible interpretation, then presented it here.

And I thought only Raz was trolling in this thread.

yes, but it was a list consisting of

- implementing English/British law in the new English/British colony
- shooting violent revolters
- predicting that unintegrated french speaking Quebeckers might be a problem in the future
- observing that unintegrated french speaking Quebeckers are a problem in the present

what they really seem to be complaining about is The Plains of Abraham

[Valmy]

what they really seem to be complaining about is The Plains of Abraham

Hey you do not fight for the outhouse when the barn is on fire.