Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[Razgovory]

One hardly needs to agree with Grallon or Slargos to believe that unique local cultures, traditions, and yes languages, help make the world a more interesting place and deserve to be protected.

I mean I suppose it may be inevitable that one day we'll all be eating identical Big Macs, listening to intechangeable pop music, speaking Anglo-Cantonese, but that doesn't mean we should welcome it.

You do know that our Canadian government goes to great lengths to try and promote and protect a unique Canadian identity?  Are you opposed to that?

And to bring it full circle, the reason I can understand what our Quebecois friends are going through is the same reason I loved the opening post - I saw it as an effort to promote that unique Canadian identity to bring back the RCAF and RCN, and understand why Quebec wants to promote their own sense of identity.

The problem I see is there is little give and take.  The Anglophones seem to have accepted the Francophones demands and have attempted to be inclusive (not always successfully).  The French speakers on the other hand, have little interest in protecting minority groups in Quebec.  Grallon has no desire to accommodate Muslims, and I doubt Cantonese is a protected language in Quebec.  There seems to a demand that immigrants drop their cultural identity as quickly as possible and become part of Quebec's French culture while at the same time proudly resisting the anglo mono-culture.  You can't have it both ways.  The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

I wonder if the situation was reversed, if the Francophones we the majority in Canada and the Anglo-phones were the minority would they be so interested in preserving the quaint language and customs of their English speaking cousins?

[Valmy]

The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

No it isn't and no it's not.

[Razgovory]

Maybe it's because I'm from a bilingual family (not French ) I never saw a distinction between two languages one country.

the portuguese identity is diffused through Canada.  You haven't systematically been abused since 1763 (Royal Proclamation, Act of Union, Confederation, Louis Riel, Manitoba, New Brunswick and Ontario as english only provinces for the first 100years or so of the country, etc,).  All the stuff done to preserve the pure British identity of the country.  Renaming the army is just one step back toward this identity: the British colonial identity that Canada never really left.

I suspect the situation of the Portuguese people would be different if they were a province of Spain. Given the few Portuguese I know don't seem to have any lost love for Spaniards, things could be different after 250 years living under their rule and being treated like a spoiled child because you insist on speaking your language and asking for respect.

You are older then I thought.

[Razgovory]

The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

No it isn't and no it's not.

Oh?  The French seem to take pride in resisting Anglo inclusions in their vocabulary.  Things like the headscarf ban and such seems to suggest they very interested in promoting "Frenchness".

[Grallon]

I understood that to be your point.  And frankly if that is the view of all Separatists then you can count me a firm adversary of your cause as it raises the red flags Malthus has already mentioned.  But I am not entirely sure your view is the view of all Separatists.

No indeed not.  Many are holding to the fiction that defining nationalism as a civic-only movement will bolster support for independence.  It won't since there's no point leaving a polity based on those principles only to rebuild another one, at great costs, as a smaller and poorer version of the first.

However if nationalism means the protection and promotion of a specific ethnocultural identity this does not necessarily imply that minorities within the larger society are systematically oppressed.  Case in point, despite all their bitching and moaning, Anglo-Quebecers are still alive and well as a community.  But they represent a special case, since they are, as a minority, the representatives of a continental super majority.




G.

[crazy canuck]

The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

No it isn't and no it's not.

Oh?  The French seem to take pride in resisting Anglo inclusions in their vocabulary.  Things like the headscarf ban and such seems to suggest they very interested in promoting "Frenchness".

Didnt the headscraf ban have to do with playing to the Slargo type muslim haters within the French electorate?  ie playing to racism against muslims rather than playing up  "frenchness".  After all wearing a scarf can be very French...

[Razgovory]

I understood that to be your point.  And frankly if that is the view of all Separatists then you can count me a firm adversary of your cause as it raises the red flags Malthus has already mentioned.  But I am not entirely sure your view is the view of all Separatists.

No indeed not.  Many are holding to the fiction that defining nationalism as a civic-only movement will bolster support for independence.  It won't since there's no point leaving a polity based on those principles only to rebuild another one, at great costs, as a smaller and poorer version of the first.

However if nationalism means the protection and promotion of a specific ethnocultural identity this does not necessarily imply that minorities within the larger society are systematically oppressed.  Case in point, despite all their bitching and moaning, Anglo-Quebecers are still alive and well as a community.  But they represent a special case, since they are, as a minority, the representatives of a continental super majority.




G.

If you had your way, there would be systematic oppression of certain groups, correct?  Or at least their expulsion.

[crazy canuck]

No indeed not.  Many are holding to the fiction that defining nationalism as a civic-only movement will bolster support for independence.  It won't since there's no point leaving a polity based on those principles only to rebuild another one, at great costs, as a smaller and poorer version of the first.

However if nationalism means the protection and promotion of a specific ethnocultural identity this does not necessarily imply that minorities within the larger society are systematically oppressed.  Case in point, despite all their bitching and moaning, Anglo-Quebecers are still alive and well as a community.  But they represent a special case, since they are, as a minority, the representatives of a continental super majority.




G.

One wonders though, if you got your way (not the separatists but your particular brand of separatism) whether minorities would continue to prosper.

edit: Raz made the same point and was more to the point.

[Razgovory]

The situation is similar in France so I think this is French Culture thing.

No it isn't and no it's not.

Oh?  The French seem to take pride in resisting Anglo inclusions in their vocabulary.  Things like the headscarf ban and such seems to suggest they very interested in promoting "Frenchness".

Didnt the headscraf ban have to do with playing to the Slargo type muslim haters within the French electorate?  ie playing to racism against muslims rather than playing up  "frenchness".  After all wearing a scarf can be very French...

One of their arguments was that it was impeding women from joining the rest of French society.  This may or may not be true, but banning it for that reason is not something you do to promote diversity.  Quite the opposite.

[crazy canuck]

After seeing the movie I posted about in the other thread, I cant help but imagine a Grallonian Quebec where a White Rose student movement is formed to circulate flyers advocating for the right to express oneself in English while being hounded and rounded up by the Grallonite Police who are intent on removing such a scourge from society.

[garbon]

They do - which is my point. A global monoculture is really just a boogeyman as there will always be so many subcultures contained within.

Boogeyman?

[Barrister]

After seeing the movie I posted about in the other thread, I cant help but imagine a Grallonian Quebec where a White Rose student movement is formed to circulate flyers advocating for the right to express oneself in English while being hounded and rounded up by the Grallonite Police who are intent on removing such a scourge from society.

Grallon is a fun target, but you and I know he is hardly representative of separatists.

[garbon]

Maybe it's because I'm from a bilingual family (not French ) I never saw a distinction between two languages one country.

the portuguese identity is diffused through Canada.  You haven't systematically been abused since 1763 (Royal Proclamation, Act of Union, Confederation, Louis Riel, Manitoba, New Brunswick and Ontario as english only provinces for the first 100years or so of the country, etc,).  All the stuff done to preserve the pure British identity of the country.  Renaming the army is just one step back toward this identity: the British colonial identity that Canada never really left.

I suspect the situation of the Portuguese people would be different if they were a province of Spain. Given the few Portuguese I know don't seem to have any lost love for Spaniards, things could be different after 250 years living under their rule and being treated like a spoiled child because you insist on speaking your language and asking for respect.

You've been systematically abused since 1763?

[Malthus]

After seeing the movie I posted about in the other thread, I cant help but imagine a Grallonian Quebec where a White Rose student movement is formed to circulate flyers advocating for the right to express oneself in English while being hounded and rounded up by the Grallonite Police who are intent on removing such a scourge from society.

Grallon is a fun target, but you and I know he is hardly representative of separatists.

Both Grallon and many RoC opponents of seperatism tacitly assume that Grallon's views are the reality for most seperatists, disguised by a polite fiction likely to fray under any sort of stress revealing the truth underneath. See the infamous "money and the ethnic vote" concession speech after the '95 referendum ... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_and_the_ethnic_vote

[HVC]

Not to diminish the past, Viper, but at some point you gotta let it go. In the 1800's france attacked Portugal. That mean I can five zoupa a hard time? You don't have to forget, but why dwell. See the present for what it is. If you view it from the view of the past no measure will ever seem satisfactory.