Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[Ideologue]

I was pretty sure there were plenty of finds in Africa, so what you said made me blink for a second.  All a dude says is "Congo," and he gets all kinds of shit.

[Neil]

I was pretty sure there were plenty of finds in Africa, so what you said made me blink for a second.  All a dude says is "Congo," and he gets all kinds of shit.

Paleoanthropology is a pretty dull subject, so I can hardly blame you for not being especially conversant in it.

[jimmy olsen]

I was pretty sure there were plenty of finds in Africa, so what you said made me blink for a second.  All a dude says is "Congo," and he gets all kinds of shit.

Paleoanthropology is a pretty dull subject, so I can hardly blame you for not being especially conversant in it.

Lies!

[jimmy olsen]

Sickening!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43902300/ns/world_news-europe/

Anders Behring Breivik planned to inject poison into ammunition before launching his murderous assaults in Norway, British press reported Tuesday.

Norwegian authorities have not confirmed that the 32-year-old man behind Norway's worst post-World War II atrocity carried out the threat. At least 76 people died in Friday's attacks.

In a chilling 1,500-page manifesto emailed to recipients across Europe before the attack, Breivik mentioned his intent to inject lethal doses of liquid nicotine into bullets ensuring that every shot delivered a deadly blow, U.K.'s Daily Mail reported.

"I've now ordered 50ml — 99 percent pure liquid nicotine from a Chinese online supplier," Breivik wrote in his manifesto last year, the Mail reported. It included, "3-4 drops will be injected in hollow point rifle bullets, which will effectively turn it into a lethal chemical weapon."

Liquid nicotine
      What is it?
          * It's tasteless and odorless
          * Used in anti-smoking products and pesticides
          * Lethal dosage for humans: 40 to 60 mg; poisoning, however, can show up after consuming as little as 5mg (Source: The National Capital Poison Center)

Police believe Breivik acted alone when he set off a massive bomb in central Oslo and then hours later massacred 68 others on a nearby island, where up to 600 people — mostly teens —had gathered for a summer political camp. Authorities have not completely ruled out that he had accomplices.

Breivik emailed his manifesto to 1,300 people less than 90 minutes before detonating the bomb in Oslo, The Guardian reported. Breivik told authorities he didn't expect to make it out of alive from the city's center and believed he would have died before carrying out his murderous plot.

Breivik donned a police uniform as part of a ruse to draw young campers to him, appeared in total control during the island rampage, police official Odd Reidar Humlegaard said.

"He's been merciless," Humlegaard said.

Authorities say that in the island attack Breivik used two weapons — a pistol and an assault rifle both bought legally, according to his manifesto.
Story: Police begin to release IDs of Norway massacre victims

On the gun application, Breivik had claimed he wanted a rifle to hunt deer. "It would have been tempting to just write the truth; "executing category A and B cultural Marxists/multiculturalist traitors," just to see their reaction,'" according to his diary entry at the same time of her permit application.

The ammunition used was illegal "dum-dum"-style bullets designed to disintegrate inside the body and cause maximum internal damage, a doctor treating shooting victims confirmed to Reuters.

"We still have to find out whether he did use the nicotine, and toxicology tests on the victims will give us the answer," a police official told the Daily Mail. "But his planning appears so meticulous that we fear he may have used the chemicals in this way. We would not put anything past this man."

Many of the Utoya victims suffered injuries consistent with hollow-point expanding ammunition, The Daily Mail reported.

If convicted, Breivik faces 21 years in prison for the terrorism charges. He told authorities he  expected to remain in prison indefinitely. A judge ordered he be held for eight weeks, including four in isolation.

[Mr.Penguin]

The ammunition used was illegal "dum-dum"-style bullets designed to disintegrate inside the body and cause maximum internal damage, a doctor treating shooting victims confirmed to Reuters.

Pretty much a description on how the NATO 5.56mm standard round works, even without being a hollow point round. He was using .223 remington hollow points, the civilian version of the 5.56mm NATO round designed for deer hunting...

A small caliber round like the 5.56mm/.223 rem is very likely to fragment in side a body, when it hits someone with in a range of 200m, this is due to it's high velocity. Some might say that it's a design feature, one of the main reason that NATO keep using the round...

[MadImmortalMan]

Alternatively, they can be described as designed to prevent over-penetration and collateral damage. They stay in the target. They don't shoot through schools. Or the tree outside.

[Berkut]

The "concerns" behind the "gesture" can stand or fall on their own merits. The actions of a psychopath have no relevance. He did not murder 100 people because of those "concerns", but because he is a psychopath.

And I was not talking about the man's mental health.  As I and others have said before - eschewing the larger picture on the sole grounds that his recent actions are horrific is setting the table for more of the same.




G.

You are not listening.

It is not setting the grounds for anything. He was crazy. Ignoring his bullshit justification for his psychotic actions will not in any way contribute to the next crazy person doing something crazy.

Ignoring the larger picture, or not ignoring the larger picture will have no effect on the likelihood of the next crazy doing something crazy.

[Berkut]

By larger picture, do you mean Muslim immigration?

And is the claim thus that not taking action to restrict Muslim immigration will inevitably lead to similar violence because the inherent quality of Muslim immigration is such that shooting Social Democratic youth auxiliaries logically follows?

The above is a textbook example of what is generally termed as 'loading the question' - nice work Counsel. 

-----

What the moral high-ground crowd seem to fail to understand (or more probably willfully ignore for the sake of posturing) is that there is the man's latent sociopathic/murderous impulses on one hand - and then there are the 'concerns' that (allegedly) motivated his actions on the other.  Two different things altogether.  The fact that both were conjoined in Friday's killing spree should not infringe on the potential validity of said concerns.

G.

Nobody has said his concerns were infringed because he is nuts.

Just that his concerns have nothing to do with his being nuts, his violent actions, or the odds of some other whacko do something whacko in the future.

[Mr.Penguin]

Alternatively, they can be described as designed to prevent over-penetration and collateral damage. They stay in the target. They don't shoot through schools. Or the tree outside.

Also true. My point is that he didn't shoot them with some kind of magic bullets like the media wants us to believe. It was standard ammunition that anyone with a hunting license can buy...

[Martinus]

The police started to publish pictures and names of the victims. To be honest, I wish the media took cue and focused on them and not on the picture of the smug psycho, which seems plastered all over the media these days. As far as I am concerned, what these people wanted, their beliefs and views are much more valuable than his. Instead he is being given a pulpit for his idiocy.

What sucks especially about this that even unlike your random terrorist attack, these weren't random people who died - these was the elite, and in a fully positive sense of the word. These were kids with an interest in political and social work, something that's not so common in the modern world. I would much more like to hear what they (or their friends) would have to say, not some retarded idiot. 

[Tamas]

Maybe it's me, but if someone mass-murdered a bunch of kids, ostensibly in the name of ideology that vaguely resembles my own, even if it wouldn't necessarily cause me to immediately reconsider my views, I would do my best to distance myself from the creep and try to show that either he was a madman who did not really espouse my ideology (and was rather motivated by his insanity) or that his ideology is quite different from my own for reasons a), b) and c). I would not try to argue that he made some good points, overall.

yes

[Tamas]

The "concerns" behind the "gesture" can stand or fall on their own merits. The actions of a psychopath have no relevance. He did not murder 100 people because of those "concerns", but because he is a psychopath.

And I was not talking about the man's mental health.  As I and others have said before - eschewing the larger picture on the sole grounds that his recent actions are horrific is setting the table for more of the same.




G.

You are not listening.

It is not setting the grounds for anything. He was crazy. Ignoring his bullshit justification for his psychotic actions will not in any way contribute to the next crazy person doing something crazy.

Ignoring the larger picture, or not ignoring the larger picture will have no effect on the likelihood of the next crazy doing something crazy.

If anything, not ignoring it would prompt other psychos to do shit like this. The world owes the victims to completely ignore what this fucktard had to say about the state of things

[Martinus]

I find it extremely preposterous that we should now reexamine our approach to the issues purportedly raised by this madman because this terrorist attack happened.

It is preposterous for at least two reasons. First of all, arguments should stand and fall on their merits, irrespective of whether a madman kills in their name or not. Second (and perhaps most importantly), taking a special care to address the concerns this nut allegedly had would mean terrorism wins - it would be like paying ransom to kidnappers - a dangerous precedent showing other nuts like him that their pet insane cause has a chance to get a better coverage if only they go out and shoot up a bunch of kids.

I think we should resist the temptation of giving the creep the soap box to spout his nonsense and the attention he craves. But doing what he did, he effectively removed himself from the polity. If anything, damnatio memoriae would be the most appropriate punishment.

[Bluebook]

Second (and perhaps most importantly), taking a special care to address the concerns this nut allegedly had would mean terrorism wins - it would be like paying ransom to kidnappers - a dangerous precedent showing other nuts like him that their pet insane cause has a chance to get a better coverage if only they go out and shoot up a bunch of kids.

You mean like how Spain pulled out of Iraq after the Madrid-bombings?

And ransom to kidnappers is paid all the time. What sort of rock have you been living under?

I think we should resist the temptation of giving the creep the soap box to spout his nonsense and the attention he craves. But doing what he did, he effectively removed himself from the polity. If anything, damnatio memoriae would be the most appropriate punishment.

Perhaps that is how things work in Poland. In Norway, they have the rule of law, and that requires, among other things, public and open trials. You cannot prevent him from speaking at his own trial. 

[Martinus]

You mean like how Spain pulled out of Iraq after the Madrid-bombings?

Indeed. Which I think has been quite uniformly decried as an act of shortsighted cowardice.

And ransom to kidnappers is paid all the time. What sort of rock have you been living under?

Most of responsible countries (Italy is not one, btw) do not pay ransom to kidnappers or at least have a policy of not paying to kidnappers (whether they do so under the table or not is another matter). Such policy is quite uniformly held by the reasonable people to be sound and preferable to the alternative.

Perhaps that is how things work in Poland. In Norway, they have the rule of law, and that requires, among other things, public and open trials. You cannot prevent him from speaking at his own trial.

I am not talking about his trial, I am talking about the media publishing excerpts from his manifesto, or quoting him, plastering the entire public sphere with the pictures of his smug face etc.

All in all, you seem to aggressively disagree. Any reason? Do you find his views  sympathetic?