Football (Soccer) Thread

[Barrister]

Okay, so not really a soccer fan, but this kind of off-the-field drama is fascinating to watch.  :popcorn:

So right now it's 12 teams: 6 from England, and 3 each from Spain and Italy.  So no French or German teams, or anywhere else.

The plan had been for those teams to continue to play in their home leagues, but UEFA/FIFA are trying to stop that - so a team either plays for its national league / Champions League, or the ESL, but not both.  Correct me if I have these details wrong.

Sounds like some of the German teams were invited but declined.  Same with Paris-SG.

You know there's a lot of potential reasons why such a league could be a success, but it kind of feels like just 12 teams isn't enough variety.  I'm going to draw a hockey analogy, because I'm sure you guys all follow the NHL closely.   Because of the global pandemic in hockey all the Canadian teams are all grouped together in the North Division, and only play each other.  Now those all-Canadian matchups are always a huge hit with the fans - but after a whole season of playing the same 7 teams it's getting kind of boring.  At this point I'd like to see Columbus Blue Jackets come into town just for some variety. 

[Tamas]

Yes, but: The idea is that these clubs would continue to compete in their national leagues, and just replace the Champions League with this format. I'd much prefer the CL format over the same 12 teams round-robining, but I guess this is going to be a war between these clubs and UEFA and if the clubs win the Super League will take over what the Champions League is now, much like how the Premier League has taken over what the previous first division of English football was.

[FunkMonk]

Hoping that we'll get to see as many commercial breaks as possible in every ESL match. Maybe cut to commercial with every VAR call. Then make every possible referee decision subject to VAR.

Hell yes, my body is ready for NFL 2.0

[Sheilbh]

The plan had been for those teams to continue to play in their home leagues, but UEFA/FIFA are trying to stop that - so a team either plays for its national league / Champions League, or the ESL, but not both.  Correct me if I have these details wrong.

Yeah - I think that's it. I think this bit is a little more complicated because of national/international competitions but is basically right.

UEFA especially is trying to stop it because one of their big cash-cows is the Champions League. It's why it reminds me of the Premier League when the twenty clubs at the top of the pyramid in England broke away from the League (I think at the time run by the FA) because they thought they could negotiate their own TV deals/commercialise it better than the League could - they were right. It's expected that there'll be an emergency meeting of UEFA tomorrow that will expel these clubs from the Champions/Europa League this year.

UEFA has also said that players who play for the ESL would not be allowed to play in UEFA national teams - so in the Euros or the World Cup. FIFA are a bit more equivocal (and I'm sure their support can be acquired) but have suggested they might not let players in the ESL compete in FIFA competitions - so the World Cup.

The national situation is more complicated but in England the Premier League is owned by all 20 clubs in the Premier League who have an equal stake as shareholders. They're having a meeting I think later this week and there is talk - though it seems very unlikely - of expelling these clubs from the Premier League. The reason for this is that there's a clause in PL rulebook/shareholders' agreement that clubs can't sign up for a new competition (other than the PL, FA Cup, League Cup, CL, EL etc) without the prior written consent of the PL. So basically you can choose - the PL or the ESL if that rule is followed. If they're kicked out they can re-join the league system - but they'd have to start at the non-professional level. Obviously that would hurt the PL as well because they'd lose a lot of their biggest draws in terms of broadcasting. But the rules will be different in each country, I think Serie A have had a meeting and La Liga intend to have one too.

The other angle is the broadcasters - that's probably been a part of PSG's decision making. The PL grew a conscience and stopped the Saudi crown prince taking over Newcastle primarily because of Qatar-Saudi relations. Qatar's Bein Sports have paid a lot of money for PL broadcasting rights, which are being pirated by the Saudi BeOut Sports (). The PL have done everything they can to get and enforce judgments against BeOut, but they can't do anything because they're protected in Saudi. BeIn have also paid for Champions League broadcasting rights through 2024 as have a number of other companies who will, I imagine, be furious if their product has just lost value and now has a competitor - they will be putting pressure on whoever they can to get the ESL shut down. And if that's a big enough threat to make the PL rule that someone isn't "fit and proper"....

The really striking thing today is the number of clubs who were rumoured to be other founder members who have publicly denied it - Porto, Ajax, the German clubs, PSG, Sevilla. I might be wrong but this feels like an idea that needed enough momentum to basically be a fait accompli. And that's stalled on day one where these clubs can't even get to the 15 "founder members" they envisaged - plus it's opened several cans of worms like reform of football governance in England, that they might regret.

Hoping that we'll get to see as many commercial breaks as possible in every ESL match. Maybe cut to commercial with every VAR call. Then make every possible referee decision subject to VAR.

I did see that the Guardian got hold of the proposal which included this detail:

It also reveals that the clubs are considering intriguing new ideas, including "technology-enhanced rule implementation" that are not backed by the authorities, although it does not go into details.

So that maybe on the way

Honestly if these clubs disappeared into this ESL and took VAR with them, I wouldn't be unhappy with them

[Tamas]

Come on now, I have seen a LOT of corrected calls thanks to VAR and I seldom watch football nowadays.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - I thought it'd be good, I think it has gotten a little better but I don't think the net number of decisions it gets right are worth the disruption. And it is the disruption/speed/mystery that annoys me.

So everyone should be miced up (as they are in rugby or American sports) so it's clear what they're looking at and why decisions are being made because sometimes it is very obscure. I'd put a time limit on how long VAR has to consider a subjective/"clear and obvious" call because if it takes more than a minute, say, then defer to the on-field ref.

And with off-side I just don't think the technology is there yet. If it was like hawkseye and able to give a more or less instantaneous decision then I'd be fine with it going down to milimetres. But having to wait while they draw the lines on the software is, in my view, not worth it. Either get the tech to a position where it can work out the correct decision to a milimetre quickly, or accept some will be wrong but it's quick.

I think some referee body did stats and found that overall it's impact was improving correct decisions from 95% to 98% - and I just don't think it's worth it for 3% more correct decisions.

[Tamas]

It also should be noted that Premier league referees on average are attrocious and this has translated to their level of VAR usage.

[Sheilbh]

It also should be noted that Premier league referees on average are attrocious and this has translated to their level of VAR usage.

Agreed. And I've seen a lot of disparaging comments about the levels of fitness of Premier League referees just being nowhere near the level it should be - which I can well believe.

[Josquius]

I do wonder what will happen if no other team makes the leap with them, judging this as likely to end badly.
They go full American style and create their own United de Paris et al to fill the 5 remaining slots?


On refs - I guess it's the big crisis with a referee shortage due to bullying and other mistreatment at the lower levels showing its tip at the top?

[The Larch]

Florentino is getting interviewed in the most god-awful sports show in our media in order to defend the ESL, and every single soundbite makes me want ot puke.

[Sheilbh]

Florentino is getting interviewed in the most god-awful sports show in our media in order to defend the ESL, and every single soundbite makes me want ot puke.

Fair play to Perez and Agnelli who are at least partially facing up to this. All the owners here are away from the camera leading to it being for managers and players to speak about it. And in another sign of how bad the consultation/keeping people informed has been all of them have said they found out at the same time as everyone else. Both Klopp and Milner have said they don't like the idea and Milner said he hopes it doesn't happen.

Which isn't great from your club captain.

I think Tuchel's also commented on it and it feels likely that all of these clubs will just let their managers and players deal with it in press conferences instead.

[Jacob]

I do wonder what will happen if no other team makes the leap with them, judging this as likely to end badly.
They go full American style and create their own United de Paris et al to fill the 5 remaining slots?

Yeah, the :popcorn: potential is massive with this. Who knows where it will go?

[Jacob]

Fair play to Perez and Agnelli who are at least partially facing up to this. All the owners here are away from the camera leading to it being for managers and players to speak about it. And in another sign of how bad the consultation/keeping people informed has been all of them have said they found out at the same time as everyone else. Both Klopp and Milner have said they don't like the idea and Milner said he hopes it doesn't happen.

Which isn't great from your club captain.

I think Tuchel's also commented on it and it feels likely that all of these clubs will just let their managers and players deal with it in press conferences instead.

The stakeholder engagement has been atrocious so far.

[The Larch]

Florentino is getting interviewed in the most god-awful sports show in our media in order to defend the ESL, and every single soundbite makes me want ot puke.

Fair play to Perez and Agnelli who are at least partially facing up to this. All the owners here are away from the camera leading to it being for managers and players to speak about it. And in another sign of how bad the consultation/keeping people informed has been all of them have said they found out at the same time as everyone else. Both Klopp and Milner have said they don't like the idea and Milner said he hopes it doesn't happen.

Which isn't great from your club captain.

I think Tuchel's also commented on it and it feels likely that all of these clubs will just let their managers and players deal with it in press conferences instead.

It's pretty clear that this is something that has been brewed in boardrooms with no communication whatsoever with any other department of each club.

And Florentino has been proposing something similar to this for more thna a decade to anyone who would listen, so it's only natural that he has no problem at all defending it publicly.

[Jacob]

It's pretty clear that this is something that has been brewed in boardrooms with no communication whatsoever with any other department of each club.

And Florentino has been proposing something similar to this for more thna a decade to anyone who would listen, so it's only natural that he has no problem at all defending it publicly.

From what I've read the conversations have been around - I don't think the concept was a big surprise to UEFA and others. The surprise was that they decided to go ahead with it, without giving much warning and right as the CL agreement (which they were at the table for) was being announced.