Football (Soccer) Thread

[Zanza]

Bayern can win against PSV and Rostov, Atletico is tough.

Borussia Mönchengladbach has no chance in that group.

Dortmund can come second, Leverkusen's group is hard to predict.

[The Larch]

Ludogorets?

A Bulgarian team that has recently broken into the top flight there and has been dominating the Bulgarian League since then (they have won the last 5 leagues in a row). Half the team is Brazilian, think of them as a knock off version of Shaktar Donetsk.

[The Larch]

And the Europa League group draw:

Group A

- Man United
- Fenerbahce
- Feyenoord
- Luhansk

Group B

- Olympiacos
- APOEL
- Young Boys
- Astana

Group C

- Anderletch
- Saint Etienne
- Mainz
- Gabala

Group D

- zenit
- Az
- Maccabi Tel Aviv
- Dundalk (an Irish team? In the EL group stages? really?  )

Group E

- Viktoria Plzen
- Roma
- Austria Wien
- Astra Giurgiu

Group F

- Athletic
- Genk
- Rapid Wien
- Sassuolo

Group G

- Ajax
- Standard Liege
- Celta ( )
- Panathinaikos

Group H

- Shaktar Donetsk
- Braga
- Ghent
- Konyaspor

Group I

- Schalke
- Red Bull Salzburg
- Krasnodar
- Nice

Group J

- Fiorentina
- PAOK
- Slovan Liberec
- Qarabag

Group K

- Inter
- Sparta Prague
- Southampton
- Hapoel Be'er Sheva

Group L

- Villarreal
- Steaua Bucarest
- zürich
- Osmanlispor

[Duque de Bragança]

Yay, even more tilted towards the big 4 and their big clubs. Is it still a Platini idea or was the master beaten?

Evolution of UEFA club competitions from 2018
Published: Friday 26 August 2016, 10.30CET
The top four teams from the four highest-ranked associations will enter the UEFA Champions League group stage from 2018 after new formats were confirmed for both major club competitions.

Evolution of UEFA club competitions from 2018

The format for the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League for 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 have been confirmed, with no changes to the competions system but a new procedure for entries.


Following an extensive consultative process involving all European football stakeholders, UEFA proposed amendments which have been approved by the UEFA Executive Committee, upon recommendations of the UEFA Club Competitions Committee and the European Club Association Board.

Q&A: All you need to know about the changes
Changes

The UEFA Europa League winners will automatically qualify for the UEFA Champions League group stage (currently they can potentially take part in a play-off round).
The top four clubs from the four top-ranked national associations will now qualify automatically for the group stage of the UEFA Champions League.
The full details of the access list for both competitions will be finalised by the end of the year.
A new system for the club coefficients: clubs will be judged on their own records (deletion of the country share for individual club coefficient unless that coefficient is lower than 20% of the association's coefficient).
Historical success in the competition will also be acknowledged in coefficient calculation (points for previous European titles with a weighted system for UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League titles)
Financial distribution to clubs will be increased significantly for both competitions.
A new four-pillar financial distribution system (starting fee, performance in the competition, individual club coefficient and market pool) will see sporting performances better rewarded, while market pool share will decrease.
What doesn't change

Retention of Champions and League route of qualifying in the UEFA Champions League, ensuring that clubs from all associations can enter through their domestic leagues and qualify for both competitions.
The UEFA Champions League will continue to have a 32-team group stage leading to a 16-club knockout phase. Similarly the UEFA Europa League remains at 48 teams.
A subsidiary company will be created that will play a strategic role in determining the future and the management of club competitions: UEFA Club Competitions SA, where half of the managing directors will be appointed by UEFA and the other half by the ECA.

Speaking about the amendments agreed for the new cycle, UEFA General Secretary ad interim Theodore Theodoridis said: "The evolution of UEFA's club competitions is the result of a wide-ranging consultative process involving all stakeholders and taking into account a wide range of expertise and perspectives.

"The amendments made will continue to ensure qualification based on sporting merit, and the right of all associations and their clubs to compete in Europe's elite club competitions.

"We are happy that European football remains united behind the concepts of solidarity, fair competition, fair distribution and good governance."

@ last sentence

Even less of a champions' league (four of the big four always in the champions's league no matter what). They could just give it to some short-listed clubs as well but maybe in the future.

Though the end of the national bonus for clubs of the same country would please Italian tifosi. Kind of perverse though

Any thoughts?

[Josquius]

Anyone else find it amazing to see the stats of people like this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Taylor_(footballer,_born_1980)

Such a long career with some pretty big teams...but never actually played all that much. Got paid brilliant money  for training and watching games

[The Larch]

Anyone else find it amazing to see the stats of people like this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Taylor_(footballer,_born_1980)

Such a long career with some pretty big teams...but never actually played all that much. Got paid brilliant money  for training and watching games

I guess he is a professional back up. I must assume that he played in the reserves in each of those teams, besides warming the bench for the first team.

[Josephus]

Yay, even more tilted towards the big 4 and their big clubs. Is it still a Platini idea or was the master beaten?

Evolution of UEFA club competitions from 2018
Published: Friday 26 August 2016, 10.30CET
The top four teams from the four highest-ranked associations will enter the UEFA Champions League group stage from 2018 after new formats were confirmed for both major club competitions.

Evolution of UEFA club competitions from 2018

The format for the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League for 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 have been confirmed, with no changes to the competions system but a new procedure for entries.


Following an extensive consultative process involving all European football stakeholders, UEFA proposed amendments which have been approved by the UEFA Executive Committee, upon recommendations of the UEFA Club Competitions Committee and the European Club Association Board.

Q&A: All you need to know about the changes
Changes

The UEFA Europa League winners will automatically qualify for the UEFA Champions League group stage (currently they can potentially take part in a play-off round).
The top four clubs from the four top-ranked national associations will now qualify automatically for the group stage of the UEFA Champions League.
The full details of the access list for both competitions will be finalised by the end of the year.
A new system for the club coefficients: clubs will be judged on their own records (deletion of the country share for individual club coefficient unless that coefficient is lower than 20% of the association's coefficient).
Historical success in the competition will also be acknowledged in coefficient calculation (points for previous European titles with a weighted system for UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League titles)
Financial distribution to clubs will be increased significantly for both competitions.
A new four-pillar financial distribution system (starting fee, performance in the competition, individual club coefficient and market pool) will see sporting performances better rewarded, while market pool share will decrease.
What doesn't change

Retention of Champions and League route of qualifying in the UEFA Champions League, ensuring that clubs from all associations can enter through their domestic leagues and qualify for both competitions.
The UEFA Champions League will continue to have a 32-team group stage leading to a 16-club knockout phase. Similarly the UEFA Europa League remains at 48 teams.
A subsidiary company will be created that will play a strategic role in determining the future and the management of club competitions: UEFA Club Competitions SA, where half of the managing directors will be appointed by UEFA and the other half by the ECA.

Speaking about the amendments agreed for the new cycle, UEFA General Secretary ad interim Theodore Theodoridis said: "The evolution of UEFA's club competitions is the result of a wide-ranging consultative process involving all stakeholders and taking into account a wide range of expertise and perspectives.

"The amendments made will continue to ensure qualification based on sporting merit, and the right of all associations and their clubs to compete in Europe's elite club competitions.

"We are happy that European football remains united behind the concepts of solidarity, fair competition, fair distribution and good governance."

@ last sentence

Even less of a champions' league (four of the big four always in the champions's league no matter what). They could just give it to some short-listed clubs as well but maybe in the future.

Though the end of the national bonus for clubs of the same country would please Italian tifosi. Kind of perverse though

Any thoughts?

I don't think it was Platini's doing so much as he was cajoled by all the big players and TV. It's part of the Super League idea talked about for the last 10 years or so. So now we'l have the same 16 teams each year plus 16 "others".

[FunkMonk]

After what's happened at Manchester United since Ferguson left, it's no wonder, really.

[Josquius]

Transfer deadline approaches.
Its really clear to me this year how ridiculous the whole thing is.
It's like a house buying chain, the new buyers relying on someone elses deal which is relying on someone elses deal right up to some rich guy at the top (probably a buy to let'er).

Made me ponder; could a system that loosely borrows from the American draft system work?
i.e. the higher finishing teams have a smaller transfer window than the less high finishing teams. Means they have to sort their business first and then it trickles down without everyone relying on literal last minute paperwork rushes.

Would never fly of course, helping lower teams over higher teams.

[The Larch]

I read something interesting the other day about the relatively new phenomenom of the "Premier League gilded cage", players at the PL, not just from top teams but also from other ones, with salaries so high that, when teams want to get rid of them, they just can't find anyone to take them. It basically said that when a player gets to a Premier League team it will be really difficult for him to leave the league, because nowhere else will salaries be that high so not many clubs will be able to be potential suitors. It pointed at only two potential exits, China, which is paying head scratching amounts of money for so-so players, and the selling club being a regular contributor to the player's salary at the buying club, which is apparently very unpopular amongst management.

In a way it's true, nowadays even mid or low tier PL clubs have a much bigger financial muscle than most teams anywhere in the world. Even 2nd tier Spanish clubs can't compete with PL clubs for signings anymore.

[Josquius]

That's been a problem with Sunderland in recent years. Flops that won't leave because they're on a good salary.

[The Larch]

An article from the Guardian's correspondant for La Liga on the recent transfers:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/aug/31/premier-league-spain-la-liga-transfer-window-signings

Premier League is draining talent from Spain but not catching the very best
Shkodran Mustafi became the 17th player to move from La Liga to the Premier League this summer when he joined Arsenal but English clubs, for all their financial muscle, are landing mainly second-tier talent

There was a moment during the first half of last season when Lucas Pérez was asked what his parents made of the form that saw him closing in on a goalscoring record at Deportivo, held by the Brazilian striker Bebeto. "They're just happy to have me around," he replied. He had been away since he was a teenager and spent the previous four years in Greece and Ukraine, the final months there the "worst of my life", but at last he was home. Now less than a year later, he has gone again.

Arsenal made an offer too good to refuse, however much Pérez had missed Galicia: a big club, Champions League football, the chance to compete for titles, treble the salary, and a transfer fee that Deportivo not only needed but welcomed and that met his buy-out clause: €20m, £17m. London is not Lviv, either. As for Arsenal, they got a quick, skilful, mobile forward who might not be a starter, nor have been their initial target, but who scored 17 times in La Liga and has been directly involved in more goals than any Spaniard since the start of last season.

Just ahead of Pérez in the goalscoring charts last season was Eibar's Borja Bastón, on 18. He signed for Swansea City for £15m, where he joins Fernando Llorente, signed from Sevilla. They are part of a significant exodus from Spain to the Premier League this summer: Manquillo, Nolito, Bravo, Feghouli, Bailly, Negredo ... the list goes on. When Shkodran Mustafi left Valencia on Tuesday night to join Pérez at Arsenal, it brought the number of players who have made the move to 17, and Vicente Iborra, Ignacio Camacho and Aymen Abdennour may yet join them. West Bromwich Albion have offered €18m for the Málaga midfielder, Sunderland's €9m bid for Iborra was rejected by Sevilla and Chelsea are in talks over taking the defender Abdennour on loan from Valencia.

Spaniards moving to England is nothing new but this is a little different, a pattern that was already present yet has become more apparent and is illustrated by Pérez's move.

For the best players at Spain's "other" clubs keen to compete and to secure a contract more in keeping with their talent, a clear choice emerged some time ago: join Real Madrid or Barcelona (or, later, Atlético Madrid) or go abroad, where the financial and footballing muscle was greater. England offered opportunities that would otherwise have been denied to players such as David Silva or Juan Mata.

But of this summer's signings, perhaps only Nolito fits that pattern; while each case is different, the rest come largely from a second tier of footballers. This time, the very best of La Liga have remained in Spain: Real Madrid and Barcelona still have Messi, Ronaldo, Bale and Suárez, while Atlético kept hold of Antoine Griezmann and Kevin Gameiro left Sevilla to join him at the Vicente Calderón. It is the "others" who have departed. This is not just a different generation; it is a different level. Attractive, but for other reasons.

English clubs, even beyond the Premier League, see in Spain a market that offers a reasonable price-quality relationship, a place for the risk-averse to sign a ready-made solution. It is a market in which they have confidence, one that has produced talented players, where development is good, and whose clubs have performed well in Europe, and is still cheaper than the Premier League.

Yet that risk-averse element may be innately risky; it may mean they are missing out on the best buys for players who will not raise the level dramatically. There is a habit of overlooking younger, "unproven" talent: everyone wants Griezmann now, no one wanted him enough to pay €30m two years ago; Sandro went to Málaga for free, not England; and the queue at Álvaro Morata's door was not there two years ago. Instead, they favour players who offer a "guaranteed" return. How much of a return is another issue; a "return" no longer means signing a potential star, necessarily. It is not about Paul Pogba, it is about the men who cost a quarter of his fee.

Spain becomes a trusted testing ground for clubs who know that even if a player's value rises, they can still meet it. There is the story of a manager telling his club to sign a young midfielder, insisting that he will be worth €100m in two years. To which he is told: "Let's sign him in two years, then." The example comes from the very highest level and from Spain, from clubs who know they can get their man, but there is an element of that when it comes to all clubs with money and right now English clubs have money – especially compared to Spanish ones.

"I know English clubs that work very hard when it comes to scouting but all the information that they gather they then don't use it when it finally comes to making signings," admits the Sevilla sporting director, Monchi. "Why? Because they have money. The attitude is: I'm not going to discover [Seydou] Keita at Lens I'm going to let Sevilla do that and then buy Keita from Sevilla. The money allows English clubs to not take the risk."

This summer that process has continued; more importantly, it has continued down the market and down the league; it does not just apply to obvious targets signed as a team's stand-out star, whose numbers on the market get fewer.

The existence of buy-out clauses at Spanish clubs also helps to facilitate the move: a fee is set at which clubs know they can get their player fight-free and at which the seller can present it to fans as a victory of sorts, or at least a move about which they could do nothing. The clause is usually set a little high, but no longer so high as to be prohibitive. For players and their agents, it removes some of the potential battle to find a way out, making life easier for everyone. Put in very simplistic terms: these are players who are available.

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"Why are English teams turning to Spain?" asks one representative involved in deals between the two countries. "Money, basically. They think they're getting a top striker for half price and the salary will be half."

Which is still a lot for Spain, and that is important too. Spanish clubs see in England a cash-rich market they need to sell to, one where they can get big fees for their players. Fuera de mercado, as they say: beyond the market value. A place where every club is rich and even the second division can pay fees that clubs in Spain's primera division cannot. The Premier League is a threat to La Liga but it has also proven vital to its financial health.

"It is a very good market for us; we sell a lot of players there," admits Monchi, despite the fact that, this summer, his club has not followed the trend, with Gameiro (Spain), Krychowiak (France), Banega (Italy) and Coke (Germany) all departing for different destinations. One agent is rather more blunt: "Frankly, when they see an English club coming, Spanish sporting directors rub their hands together in glee," he says. "When the call comes they think of a fee that's ridiculous and quote that."

The Premier League has certainly been lucrative for Spanish clubs. £17m for Pérez and £15m for Bastón appears to be a lot of money. But it may be time to recalibrate what counts as "too much" as the income from the new £7bn TV deal reaches Premier League clubs. They pay that because they can. This looks like a sellers' market to the Spanish and like a buyers' market to the English. Spanish players may have seemed overpriced this summer, but the context is a window in which Christian Benteke set Crystal Palace back £27m and Yannick Bolaise cost £20m.

[Josephus]

hart to Torino is a baffling one.

[Liep]

Lord Bendtner to Nottingham Forest.

[celedhring]

Lord Bendtner to Nottingham Forest.

That's quite a drop from playing for Wolfsburg... although there's so much money in English football nowadays that he might be making more cash now.