Football (Soccer) Thread

[Jacob]

My amusement is based on language use.  I don't assume fans in Shanghai want to watch only BIG MATCHES ALL THE TIME.  That's the assumption of the super league proponents, and that assumption is mirrored in the writing on the tshirts.

I see. Well, I'm glad you're amused

[Admiral Yi]

Thanks. 

[Admiral Yi]

I'm not entirely sure about what's Marxist about this

"The people."  Same concept.  Only this subset is "people."  Everyone else is something different.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not entirely sure about what's Marxist about this

"The people."  Same concept.  Only this subset is "people."  Everyone else is something different.

Marxism's about the workers though - in this case you have some of the workers wearing shirts extolling their consumers now. On the other hand I think the fans create part of the value of European football - it's a bit like how do you get a Marxist analysis of Facebook

Incidentally on ownership there are some impacts from fans. So Chelsea is a really interesting example sold the freehold their stadium is built on - the new buyers went bust and basically a company that is non-profit and sells shares to fans now owns the freehold that Chelsea's stadium is on. They charge Chelsea a peppercorn rent but can stop the sale of the stadium name, they can stop any proposed changes to the stadium including redevelopment which basically means Chelsea can't move stadium without fan consent.

Far less important, but quite emotionally relevant to why fans are angry was the Arsenal shares - they issued shares to fans. And often those shares were the only ones someone owned and were literally passed down in the family. Kroenke got to over 75% shareholding by buying out Alisher Usmanov, that means from a corporate law perspective he could basically do anything but he had the right to compulsorily buy the 10% of historic shares owned by fans. And he did - it still causes a lot of anger with Arsenal fans because, unlike with Chelsea, they had no power as a 10% bloc, but despite having no power he chose to wipe out that little stake of personal ownership those thousands of fans had with their club.

Edit: Obviously again that privileges a certain type of fan.

Edit: Incidentally great Sid Lowe piece (as ever) about Perez:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/22/florentino-perez-the-emperor-who-wanted-more-but-lost-for-once

Edit: And, incidentally, the question of why won't you leave for Josh Kroenke came from the chair of the Danish Arsenal Supporters' Trust.

[FunkMonk]

In the Arsenal podsphere and social media, Stan and Josh Kroenke are basically the devil incarnate, and I'm totally on board with that sentiment.

I remember when Stan first bought into Arsenal. Wenger was still around and my immediate assessment was that Stan saw Arsene consistently making Top 4 with the barest transfer budget available and thought "Yeah, that's the kind of club I want." Of course, that gravy train stopped and Stan still doesn't want to invest in the team.

[Sheilbh]

In the Arsenal podsphere and social media, Stan and Josh Kroenke are basically the devil incarnate, and I'm totally on board with that sentiment.

I remember when Stan first bought into Arsenal. Wenger was still around and my immediate assessment was that Stan saw Arsene consistently making Top 4 with the barest transfer budget available and thought "Yeah, that's the kind of club I want." Of course, that gravy train stopped and Stan still doesn't want to invest in the team.

I kind of get the Glazers/FSG/Kroenke - they are taking over big established brands. They can probably turn a profit on lots of commercial sponsorship deals plus broadcast, plus stadium expansions and expensive seats etc. If they make smart sporting decisions they'll even occasionally win things. I think FSG are good at that. I think Glazers were good at that as long as the decision could be: let Sir Alex run things. The Kroenkes are less good at it

But it will be a nice constant stream of revenue. It's the guys taking over Burnley that I find slightly baffling because I think they want more the revenue those clubs are currently delivering but perhaps underestimate the risk/expense of building Burnley, or Fulham into global brands. And otherwise football clubs normally lose money.

[Sheilbh]

Even JP Morgan is now disowning the Super League:

[The Larch]

I believe they even got downgraded from some kind of rating over their support for the project. 

[Sheilbh]

Yeah their sustainability rating - which I think matters for sustainable investment funds etc - was downgraded because you are meant to consult with stakeholders.

Similarly technically under UK law there is an obligation on directors to consider long-term factors and stakeholders when deciding what's in the best interests of a company. I think that's normally pro-forma/not really enforced. But there is a lot of anger so who knows

Edit: Also fair play to Ilkay Gundogan for coming out against the Champions League changes too - I agree with him (always had a soft spot for him because I read an interview where he came across really well )

Ilkay Gündogan
@IlkayGuendogan
15h
With all the Super League stuff going on... can we please also speak about the new Champions League format?  More and more and more games, is no one thinking about us players?
The new UCL format is just the lesser of the two evils in comparison to the Super League...
The UCL format right now works great and that is why it's the most popular club competition in the world - for us players and for the fans.

I also think there is a particular player welfare issue going on here. The players didn't get a proper pre-season break this season because of covid. There's been more games crammed together this season because of covid. The Euros are this summer so many won't get a proper pre-season again. I think there'll be more Champions League games next season and, in January, there's the Qatar World Cup.

I get that they are highly paid but I really suspect at some point we will see even more injury crises than this season. At a certain point the employers have a duty of care not to rinse their athletes - plus some of those injury crises are going to hit big players/clubs/highly prized assets.

[The Larch]

Koeman also called for less matches when he came out agains the Super League. Sadly I don't think it's something that will ever take place, even though it'd be quite positive in many ways.

[The Larch]

Venue reshuffle for the Euros this summer. The Spanish venue will finally be Seville instead of Bilbao, after the Basque regional government's requiriments for fans to be at the stands were deemed excessive. Also Dublin has been removed and games meant to be played there will be moved to St. Petersburg and London.

[Duque de Bragança]

So it's a mini-Euro for London, they already got the games once scheduled for Brussels and its new stadium, which has yet to be built.

[Sheilbh]

Koeman also called for less matches when he came out agains the Super League. Sadly I don't think it's something that will ever take place, even though it'd be quite positive in many ways.

Klopp too:
"They showed it to me, I spent one hour with UEFA, I told them I don't like it.

"It has 10 more games in, I don't know how we fit them in.

"The only people who never get asked are the coaches, players and supporters.

"We are already on the edge"

"UEFA didn't ask us, the Super League didn't ask us. It's just always 'play more games' - that's not possible."

Again the people who wanted the changes to the CL are the owners of these clubs so they can sell the rights to more matches, earn more money and protect their ability to get into the CL even if they fail domestically (based on historic coefficients). You know it's not like someone is forcing these extra games on Liverpool or FSG or whatever other owner group you look at.

I think it's a particular issue right now because so many clubs are under financial pressure due to covid and empty stadiums they are all trying to increase their revenue through more broadcast games, but at the same time UEFA and FIFA and the other national team authorities are trying to catch-up with the international games for their tournaments/qualifications and because of all of that the domestic leagues are weirdly compressed. Again, I get they're very richly rewarded for playing but I think this is going to have an injury impact on a number of players.

[Jacob]

Even JP Morgan is now disowning the Super League:

Well yeah, it might be a challenge meeting the revenue projections (which were what, double that of the Champions League?) if the vast majority of your potential customers hate your new league intensely.

[Valmy]

In my experience sports fans hate any changes until the games start and then we get tempted by the sweet siren call of athletic competition and make our peace with it. Sort of like how the lead up to every World Cup is nothing but people being enraged by all the corrupt FIFA shenanigans going on...and then the first match starts and we promptly forget about all of that.

The problem with this super league is that they are not even close to playing any games.