Dispatches from Durban II

[Malthus]

Another good'un:
raped by a police dog

Jesus Christ!

That would be a most ironic name for the dog. 

[Neil]

I'm with Sheilbh.

Throwing up your hands in exasperation and saying "you guys are beyond the pale, we're not even going to bother with all your bullshit and shenanigans" is conceding control of the terms of the discussion to the demagogues and hatemongers.  For the West and allies of actual human rights and freedom to prevail it needs to be engaged in this sort of stuff fully, calling people on their shit and arguing convincingly for what is right.  When Ahmedinedjad spews bullshit, it needs to be followed by someone saying "that is bullshit" (as Norway did), not by people saying "ok, you we'll let you and your cronies speak for the UN on human rights because you're so full of shit so we can't be bothered to respond."

Do you honestly think that progress on human rights is actually possible?  I don't think that progress can be made without bringing affluence to the masses.  Since the only way to make this possible is to drastically reduce the human population, doesn't this create a problem?

[Admiral Yi]

For the West and allies of actual human rights and freedom to prevail it needs to be engaged in this sort of stuff fully, calling people on their shit and arguing convincingly for what is right.

Do you think the Norwegian convinced anyone?

[dps]

For the West and allies of actual human rights and freedom to prevail it needs to be engaged in this sort of stuff fully, calling people on their shit and arguing convincingly for what is right.

Do you think the Norwegian convinced anyone?

Well, the report says that the hall erupted in applause, but I'd say that it was because he was preaching to the converted, not because he convinced anyone.

Still, I agree that it's better to call the Iranians and the like on their BS than not doing so.

Of course, it would help to set things up so that countries like Libya don't get the chairmanship of the human rights committee.

[Jacob]

For the West and allies of actual human rights and freedom to prevail it needs to be engaged in this sort of stuff fully, calling people on their shit and arguing convincingly for what is right.

Do you think the Norwegian convinced anyone?

I think that exerting moral leadership is an incremental effort and one which is best considered in the long term.  As such, I think the Norwegian response contributed positively (though all things said, in human rights and the UN it's more of a rearguard action than any sort of advance).

[Jacob]

Dunno if I agree or not. The problem is the familiar one: that if the level of discourse is the protest and the invective, or manuverings in committees, the bad guys will always be better at it, since they have no real sense that the other guy might have a legitimate argument - this is just another field of conflict for them, they really do care nothing about "human rights".

So if it comes to shouting and grandstanding at circus-like "conferences", they will always shout the loudest and most whole-heartedly. Why engage them on *their* terms?

If you can engage them on better terms, do so, but if it is a choice engaging on less than ideal terms and not engaging at all I believe it is better to engage vigorously while attempting to change the terms.  Throwing up your hands and saying "you guys are crazy, I'm not even going to bother challenging the bullshit you say" is giving up.  That strategy is fine for dealing with assholes on the internet, but it is not how a nation should deal with the world.

[The Minsky Moment]

Dunno if I agree or not. The problem is the familiar one: that if the level of discourse is the protest and the invective, or manuverings in committees, the bad guys will always be better at it, since they have no real sense that the other guy might have a legitimate argument - this is just another field of conflict for them, they really do care nothing about "human rights".

So if it comes to shouting and grandstanding at circus-like "conferences", they will always shout the loudest and most whole-heartedly. Why engage them on *their* terms?

Agree 100% - moreoever, it is a waste of time at best.
There are other ways for the "good guys" to engage meaningfully on these issues.   Promulgating wordy communiques that are only of interest to functionaries is not the way to go.

These Declarations will have as much positive impact on reducing racism in the world as the 1936 Soviet constitution had in bringing human rights and rule of law to the Soviet Empire.

[Malthus]

If you can engage them on better terms, do so, but if it is a choice engaging on less than ideal terms and not engaging at all I believe it is better to engage vigorously while attempting to change the terms.  Throwing up your hands and saying "you guys are crazy, I'm not even going to bother challenging the bullshit you say" is giving up.  That strategy is fine for dealing with assholes on the internet, but it is not how a nation should deal with the world.

I just don't see any upside to it. *They* are unlikely to be convinced of the need for real human rights. By engaging them on their terms (particularly at these rigged up 'conferences'), all you are doing is providing them with a platform and a certain amount of unearned legitimacy - and providing gainful employment to a certain number of functionaries (does anyone else actually read the stuff these conferences create?)

[frunk]

Personally I think it's more about taking an arena away from them where they can spout their nonsense.  I doubt anybody will directly be convinced.

[Jacob]

Personally I think it's more about taking an arena away from them where they can spout their nonsense.  I doubt anybody will directly be convinced.

Yeah exactly.

[Ancient Demon]

I agree with those who say that these hateful views must be challenged, not ignored. The views expressed at the UN conference might seem too ridiculous to be taken seriously by us, but that's the actual worldview of a large portion of the world's population. There are real gains to be made over the minds of the developing world's uneducated masses, and lately the bad guys have been winning.

[garbon]

There are real gains to be made over the minds of the developing world's uneducated masses, and lately the bad guys have been winning.

You think a UN conference is where the battle can be turned?

[Ancient Demon]

There are real gains to be made over the minds of the developing world's uneducated masses, and lately the bad guys have been winning.

You think a UN conference is where the battle can be turned?

Every little bit helps.

[jimmy olsen]

Ancient Demon, what was your name on the old forum?

[garbon]

Every little bit helps.

I'd rather we saved the money.