Dont' bring manga into Canada

[Neil]

One argument against plea bargains could be that the state shouldn't jail people unless it has proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that the person is guilty.

if they acquiesce to their guilt then it is proven.

Not really. In fact, doing away with this principle is considered the most important step in moving away from medieval to modern idea of justice.

I don't really think that you can be trusted when it comes to discussing theories of law and justice.

[Martinus]

One argument against plea bargains could be that the state shouldn't jail people unless it has proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that the person is guilty.

if they acquiesce to their guilt then it is proven.

Not really. In fact, doing away with this principle is considered the most important step in moving away from medieval to modern idea of justice.

Please stop trolling Marti.

Every justice system in the world accepts a valid confession as proof of guilt.

The confession must be believable and supported by circumstantial evidence, at least in the Polish system. If someone goes into the court and confesses to a crime, and there is no other evidence, a court under Polish law has to acquit.

Incidentally, there is a difference between confessing a deed (and then this deed being a subject of a court's assessment) and confessing to a specific charge (and this being part of the deal with the prosecution). As I said, the latter would be illegal under Polish law.

[Martinus]

One argument against plea bargains could be that the state shouldn't jail people unless it has proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that the person is guilty.

if they acquiesce to their guilt then it is proven.

Not really. In fact, doing away with this principle is considered the most important step in moving away from medieval to modern idea of justice.

I don't really think that you can be trusted when it comes to discussing theories of law and justice.

I earn significantly more money than BB by practicing law. This by the very definition of the capitalist system makes me a better expert. Q.E.D.

[Neil]

My eyes have been opened a great deal over the past few years on the difference between the American, or (usually) correct, approach to speech and expression issues, and the approach that seems to be embraced by every other Western country, which is to say a deeply troubling, sometimes tyrannical and occasionally even truly evil approach.  And the Euros and Canadians I talk to don't even seem to realize how their rights have been limited and their societies made poorer and less safe for it.

To be fair, I don't the 'poorer and less safe' thing is true.  At least in the bounds of Alberta, you just don't see the kinds of poverty and crime that are the norm in the US.  Mind you, the American approach to free speech is usually the correct one.

Still, I think it's only a matter of time before you guys get there too.

[Martinus]

Ide has a flat plasma and no health care. He thinks we are poorer.

[The Brain]

People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time. That a confession in itself meets the reasonable doubt test is false.

[Neil]

I earn significantly more money than BB by practicing law. This by the very definition of the capitalist system makes me a better expert. Q.E.D.

You also misunderstand the capitalist system, but I suppose that's the order of things.

[Martinus]

People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time. That a confession in itself meets the reasonable doubt test is false.

Indeed (and that's exactly the statement from HVC I was disagreeing with).

[HVC]

People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time. That a confession in itself meets the reasonable doubt test is false.

well since they're in court/jail to begin with i'm assuming that there is evidence. I don't think if you walked into a jail and confessed to taking the lindenburg baby they'd lock you up.

[The Brain]

People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time. That a confession in itself meets the reasonable doubt test is false.

well since they're in court/jail to begin with i'm assuming that there is evidence.

[HVC]

People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time. That a confession in itself meets the reasonable doubt test is false.

well since they're in court/jail to begin with i'm assuming that there is evidence.

they got far enough to offer the deal so something has to be there. whether its strong enough is for the defendent to decide

[Ideologue]

My eyes have been opened a great deal over the past few years on the difference between the American, or (usually) correct, approach to speech and expression issues, and the approach that seems to be embraced by every other Western country, which is to say a deeply troubling, sometimes tyrannical and occasionally even truly evil approach.  And the Euros and Canadians I talk to don't even seem to realize how their rights have been limited and their societies made poorer and less safe for it.

To be fair, I don't the 'poorer and less safe' thing is true.  At least in the bounds of Alberta, you just don't see the kinds of poverty and crime that are the norm in the US.  Mind you, the American approach to free speech is usually the correct one.

Culturally poorer, I mean.  As for safety, I don't mean crime, but rather an unrestrained State that can't be easily escaped or profitably opposed.  If a new law is passed that places the average citizen under threat of being exposed to violence because of their words or thoughts, I'd suspect the average citizen is indeed "less safe" than they were before.

Still, I think it's only a matter of time before you guys get there too.

But we're Exceptional.

Ide has a flat plasma and no health care. He thinks we are poorer.

It's an LCD.

I think Europeans deliberately impoverish their culture, yes.  It's amazing that the same country could hale its greatest living novelist before a court on charges of "racism" and turn a few years later and pull the most audacious act of institutional bigotry since America in the 1960s by outlawing niqabs as well as Batman costumes.  But it shouldn't be that surprising.  This is also the same country that has criminalized the mockery of its flag or national anthem.

All these acts come directly from the same tyrannous impulse, and by controlling expression that the state disagrees with, what you will eventually be left with is a cultural discourse that no longer has anything to talk about except perhaps how boring it is.

[Martinus]

That's rich coming from a country that has a national tv meltdown because an aging pop star shows a nipple on tv.

[Barrister]

People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time. That a confession in itself meets the reasonable doubt test is false.

well since they're in court/jail to begin with i'm assuming that there is evidence. I don't think if you walked into a jail and confessed to taking the lindenburg baby they'd lock you up.

We're certainly well aware of the concept of "false confessions".

Techniques such as "holdback information" is common place as a result.

But certainly we convict people all the time when the key piece of evidence is their confession, without which we would not be able to obtain a conviction.

[HVC]

Maybe i just hold more respect for law inforcement then most, but i trust them in most cases. Not all. See Peel Region Police and false officers testimony. Later proven to be false and not looked into further by the crown (crown has to ask police force to look into allegation.sthey don't ask, no one looks).

Also, what's your take on rapists being deported? we hav e a fun thread going on.