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The American Civil War

Started by Sheilbh, June 25, 2011, 06:02:33 AM

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PDH

#45
June 26, 2011, 11:45:20 PM
The Union (after Bull Run) had so many troops that nobody knew what in the hell to do with them.  The people who claimed to have answers (Halleck, Mac, Fremont) were all boobs and it took time for the cream to rise to the top.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

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"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Kleves

#46
June 26, 2011, 11:56:40 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 26, 2011, 11:19:47 PM
It be hard to get away with that in the middle of a war. Not many would be willing to risk being shoot by firing squad.
Tell that to Earl Van Dorn.
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

jimmy olsen

#47
June 26, 2011, 11:58:45 PM
Emphasis on the not many.

It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Viking

#48
June 27, 2011, 04:38:24 AM
Quote from: PDH on June 26, 2011, 11:45:20 PM
The Union (after Bull Run) had so many troops that nobody knew what in the hell to do with them.  The people who claimed to have answers (Halleck, Mac, Fremont) were all boobs and it took time for the cream to rise to the top.

Lincoln DID have the answer, attack everywhere at once. Shame nobody listened to him until Grant took over.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

dps

#49
June 27, 2011, 05:59:34 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 27, 2011, 04:38:24 AM
Quote from: PDH on June 26, 2011, 11:45:20 PM
The Union (after Bull Run) had so many troops that nobody knew what in the hell to do with them.  The people who claimed to have answers (Halleck, Mac, Fremont) were all boobs and it took time for the cream to rise to the top.

Lincoln DID have the answer, attack everywhere at once. Shame nobody listened to him until Grant took over.

Even with Grant in charge, it was hard to co-ordinate the different armies to have them actually pull that off.  Somebody was always complaining that their command wasn't ready, or just going off on their own.

Caliga

#50
June 27, 2011, 06:55:17 AM
I think what it boils down to is the fact that the regular army not only was far too tiny to meet the secessionist threat, but a huge percentage of its professional officer cadre actually defected to the Southern cause.  So, faced with a critical leadership shortage to command such a massive army that quite literally sprang up overnight, the government didn't know who to turn to other than politicians (e.g. Nathaniel Banks, Ambrose Burnside)... and as most of know, typical politicians are retarded egomaniacal charlatans.
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Admiral Yi

#51
June 27, 2011, 07:03:43 AM
Burnside was a politician?

Viking

#52
June 27, 2011, 07:11:24 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2011, 07:03:43 AM
Burnside was a politician?

After the war. He was a congressman and governor of rhode island. Before the war he was a soldier. He resigned his commission to get into business. He was an industrialist and inventor. He invented a breech loading carbine that avoided the problem of flash before the war.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Caliga

#53
June 27, 2011, 07:11:29 AM
Yeah, but I just checked and he didn't seem to hold elective office until after the Civil War (Senator from, and Governor of, Rhode Island).  He ran for office prior to the war but was defeated.

It seems he was best known for inventing the Burnside carbine prior to the war.... I'd heard of it but didn't realize it was named for him. :blush:

So anyway, maybe Burnside wasn't the best example, although he seemed to have been promoted on account of his OSSUM rifle's reputation more than his leadership qualities.
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jimmy olsen

#54
June 27, 2011, 07:11:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2011, 07:03:43 AM
Burnside was a politician?
After the war he was a governor and senator from RI, before though he only had a losing race for Congress on his record. He was more of an inventor/businessman after he left the army.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Admiral Yi

#55
June 27, 2011, 07:17:08 AM
Glad we cleared that up.  :)

And Cal, I would say he's best known for side burns.

Viking

#56
June 27, 2011, 07:21:51 AM
Quote from: Caliga on June 27, 2011, 07:11:29 AM
Yeah, but I just checked and he didn't seem to hold elective office until after the Civil War (Senator from, and Governor of, Rhode Island).  He ran for office prior to the war but was defeated.

It seems he was best known for inventing the Burnside carbine prior to the war.... I'd heard of it but didn't realize it was named for him. :blush:

So anyway, maybe Burnside wasn't the best example, although he seemed to have been promoted on account of his OSSUM rifle's reputation more than his leadership qualities.

He did perform well in north carolina early in the war and was competent at antietam. His march to Fredricksburg was quick and efficient and he got there well before Lee. He was just screwed when the pontoons did not show up giving Lee enough time to set up on the defensive. After Fredricksburg he served well in East Tennessee and at the Crater it was last minute changes that screwed him over.

If he hadn't been the man in command when he was ordered to assault Mary's Heights south of Fredricksburg I think he'd have a a decent reputation for a Union General.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

jimmy olsen

#57
June 27, 2011, 07:30:03 AM
People don't cut him enough slack for realizing how incompetent he was. He kept protesting against getting promoted and people just didn't listen.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Viking

#58
June 27, 2011, 07:32:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 27, 2011, 07:30:03 AM
People don't cut him enough slack for realizing how incompetent he was. He kept protesting against getting promoted and people just didn't listen.

I gotta agree there.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Valmy

#59
June 27, 2011, 08:10:17 AM Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 08:12:52 AM by Valmy
Well besides the fact that both armies were full of terrible generals and the Federal Army more so for the reasons mentioned the Federals simply had a much more difficult task militarily.  They had to invade and destroy the South while the Confederate commanders merely had to keep their cause going.  Even a decently competent general was going to have a hard time in those conditions.

On the other hand even a subpar general like Braxton Bragg could kinda sorta keep it together for the South.
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Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."
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