World of Tanks

[Berkut]

"good players can hit despite accuracy". Please. If that nice green circle refuses to be smaller then 3 times the target far away, you can be the überpwnr, you still run a decent chance of missing.

Uggh, this is a silly argument.

Look, with my E-50, which I've run with two extremely accurate guns, I hit about 80% of the time. You can check the stats. That is with a .3 or .32 accuracty gun, both better than the JTs .33 accuracy gun.

With my T-28, which has a .39 accuracy gun I hit 75% of the time. Is there a difference? Of course.

Does it matter in most games? Not really. A good shooter is going to hit a little bit more with a better gun, but most of the variability in hit ratio is in shot selection, not gun accuracy.

Hence what I said - people who know how to shoot are going to hit based more on their ability to shoot and taking good shots than a marginal increase in accuracy. And the difference between .38 and .32 is not that great. It is only when you get up above .4 that accuracy really starts limiting your options.

[Tamas]

You are obviously a good gunner, but that aiming circle isn't there for nothing. What your excellent hit percentage shows on both tanks is that you know the guns' effective ranges and how to shoot at moving targets with them, not that a T-28 is just as good for sniping as an E-50.

[Berkut]

Artillery is a problem to the JT, but 6th sense solves it.
[/quote]

Not really. It helps, but it hardly solves it.

And you can relocate with it easily.

Compared to what? Can it relocate easily compared to a T110E5 which has a turret, a gun that is just as accurate, and does 37 kph compared to 27?

Note that I am commenting on why TDs at the high end are not great snipers compared to the alternatives - not saying they cannot snipe at all - of course they can.

The lack of a turret really hurts, since it means you cannot easily duck behind some cover from arty, pop out and shoot, then duck back again before artillery can get a good shot off.

Heaven comes when there is either no artillery, or you can shield from it, while also having a hull down position (like a wreck, or a short team-mate!). Oh boy, you start reaping things apart.

Indeed. Problem is that that heaven is just a as profound with a regular heavy tank.

I do see that the object is a better TD. But I have been highly annoyed by Russian "accuracy" and while it's derp gun intriques me, I do value the awesome accuracy of my Jagdtiger.

The BL-10 is hardly a derp gun. Not by any stretch. One of our clans better players has a 84% hit rate in his 704.

Berkut, you have managed to put some serious doubts into me about chasing the T95 though. Too bad you did it half a day after the discount on the SU-100, my current step in the road to the 704, expired

Meh, if you like the US TDs, then go after it. The question should be driven by the marginal effectiveness in end game, but what you like to play.

The T95 has one thing going for it in that respect - it is different. It takes a different style to succeed in it, and it is genuinely a different experience to play. The 704 is awesome, but pretty vanilla in its play style.

[Berkut]

You are obviously a good gunner, but that aiming circle isn't there for nothing. What your excellent hit percentage shows on both tanks is that you know the guns' effective ranges and how to shoot at moving targets with them, not that a T-28 is just as good for sniping as an E-50.

What it shows is that I am right, and the difference between .33 and .38 in accuracy does not translate into a significant difference in hit rate, and hence a significant difference in effectiveness such that increased accuracy is worth giving up increased damage.

More importantly, it shows that you don't need a .33 accuracy gun to snipe perfectly effectively.

[Tamas]

Well yeah, there is certainly a limit after which additional accuracy doesnt worth less damage, that was my take looking at the Panther for example, altough I never played it.

And I think we are talking a bit of differen things on high-end TDs in general, as I have no "end game" considerations - clan wars must be loads of fun but I don't do MMO clan time commitments.

I guess it comes down to style. In TDs, I played the entire German line, the US line until the T25, and the Russian until the SU-100. I enjoyed the German one the most, I still keep a Marder II around, altough it doesnt get much playtime since I elited the JT, since in all effect they are the same to drive - accurate, big damage, fragile. Except that the JT can't hide, in exchange gets to deflect shots if your enemy can't aim for the weakspots.

Anyways, I guess I am just not a good-enough shooter, because being used to the German accuracy, I found the Russian one annoying. It is ok for a face-hugger style, but for pew-pewing out of bushes from far away, nah.

[katmai]

Tamas is a nazi lover...big shock.



Though so far I agree i like the German TD's the best.

[DGuller]

You are obviously a good gunner, but that aiming circle isn't there for nothing. What your excellent hit percentage shows on both tanks is that you know the guns' effective ranges and how to shoot at moving targets with them, not that a T-28 is just as good for sniping as an E-50.

What it shows is that I am right, and the difference between .33 and .38 in accuracy does not translate into a significant difference in hit rate, and hence a significant difference in effectiveness such that increased accuracy is worth giving up increased damage.

More importantly, it shows that you don't need a .33 accuracy gun to snipe perfectly effectively.

Hit rate isn't everything (unless you're in a KV with 152 derp).  Hitting any part of the tank counts as a hit, AFAIK, but with more accurate guns you can hit the weak point more precisely, and thus bounce less often.

I do agree though that pretty much any gun in the game can hit often enough if you take well-aimed shots.  I once played the derp KV on Sand River, and with no urban area to speak of there, I had to resort to sniping from the hill.  Some Ferdinand nearby tries to lecture me that derp isn't a sniping tank.  I type "watch this", and proceed to kill 2 tanks almost halfway across the map, right at the limit of the range that tanks are even drawn.  Of course, with the derp, you generally don't care where on the tank you hit, a normal gun with derp accuracy would be the height of frustration.

[Tamas]

Tamas is a nazi lover...big shock.



Though so far I agree i like the German TD's the best.

So funny, when I platoon with some friends, the shtick is that I am a Yankee-lover

Which wasn't true btw, but it is getting to be. I absolutely adore my T29, even if it's damage could be better. But it has okay speed, okay damage, accuracy, and ROF, and über armor on the turret.
I also can't wait to get credits for the Pershing, as I liked the T20, and the T25 is cool as well.

The T25 deserves special mention, because while TD gameplay is my favourite, I do like flanking with mediums, and when driving this tank, I can switch between the gamestyles at whim.

[katmai]

I love my Easy Eight.

[Berkut]

You are obviously a good gunner, but that aiming circle isn't there for nothing. What your excellent hit percentage shows on both tanks is that you know the guns' effective ranges and how to shoot at moving targets with them, not that a T-28 is just as good for sniping as an E-50.

What it shows is that I am right, and the difference between .33 and .38 in accuracy does not translate into a significant difference in hit rate, and hence a significant difference in effectiveness such that increased accuracy is worth giving up increased damage.

More importantly, it shows that you don't need a .33 accuracy gun to snipe perfectly effectively.

Hit rate isn't everything (unless you're in a KV with 152 derp).  Hitting any part of the tank counts as a hit, AFAIK, but with more accurate guns you can hit the weak point more precisely, and thus bounce less often.

Not when you are sniping though, at least not in most cases. Your target is generally too far away to aim at weak spots.

The highly accurate guns are really nice IMO when you are firing at medium range, and you can take shots you simply would not take otherwise - the 88L100 for example, can fire at that last drive wheel sticking our from around the corner. I loved playing my E-50 with that gun. But I won't kid myself into thinking it is better than the 105, even with the lower accuracy and ROF.

I am not saying accuracy doesn't EVER matter - that is clearly not true. I am just saying that it isn't important enough overall to warrant giving up much for an incremental increase, and hence a high accuracy is not a requirement to snipe effectively. And really, all the T10 guns seem to have pretty similar accuracy, all in the .33ish to .38 range. Hell, I wish there were more maps where a really accurate long range gun is useful, but mostly you aren't taking 450m+ shots in WoT.

I do agree though that pretty much any gun in the game can hit often enough if you take well-aimed shots.  I once played the derp KV on Sand River, and with no urban area to speak of there, I had to resort to sniping from the hill.  Some Ferdinand nearby tries to lecture me that derp isn't a sniping tank.  I type "watch this", and proceed to kill 2 tanks almost halfway across the map, right at the limit of the range that tanks are even drawn.  Of course, with the derp, you generally don't care where on the tank you hit, a normal gun with derp accuracy would be the height of frustration.

Yeah, that is what is funny about Tamas referring to the "derp" gun on the 704. The actual derp guns have accuracies in the range of .6+, the ultimate derp gun is 0.69!

The 704 is .38. That is MORE than accurate enough to snipe effectively. And when it hits and does 800 points of damage...well, that makes you not much care about the JTs better accuracy or ROF.

[Berkut]

The T25 deserves special mention, because while TD gameplay is my favourite, I do like flanking with mediums, and when driving this tank, I can switch between the gamestyles at whim.

The T25 is still my favorite overall TD. It is what I imagined the JagdPanther to be.

[DGuller]

At the upper end, they don't shine for the most part, but where they do it is in medium range slugouts. Snipers have to be mobile, because as soon as they fire two rounds, artillery is going to be on them. And TDs are meat to artillery.

To respond to an earlier point, not necessarily. 

The really good thing about Sixth Sense is not that it tells you when to hightail it out of there, but that it teaches you how to stay hidden even after firing.  What seems to be a lesser known fact is that you can in fact stay hidden after firing.  The trick is to be about a tank length behind the bush when firing, instead of being partially in it. 

The downside is that this cover works both ways:  that bush prevents others from seeing your muzzle flash, but it also prevents you from seeing behind the bush all that well, so you can't detect previously unseen enemies.  However, if you're a sniper, you shouldn't be the one doing the detecting in any case.

[Berkut]

At the upper end, they don't shine for the most part, but where they do it is in medium range slugouts. Snipers have to be mobile, because as soon as they fire two rounds, artillery is going to be on them. And TDs are meat to artillery.

To respond to an earlier point, not necessarily. 

The really good thing about Sixth Sense is not that it tells you when to hightail it out of there, but that it teaches you how to stay hidden even after firing.  What seems to be a lesser known fact is that you can in fact stay hidden after firing.  The trick is to be about a tank length behind the bush when firing, instead of being partially in it. 

The downside is that this cover works both ways:  that bush prevents others from seeing your muzzle flash, but it also prevents you from seeing behind the bush all that well, so you can't detect previously unseen enemies.  However, if you're a sniper, you shouldn't be the one doing the detecting in any case.

OK, two things in response here:

1) What you say is true, but applies just as well to non-TDs - so back to my first point - why a TD instead of a heavy? The better accuracy is marginally important (to the extent that it even exists) and everything you are saying about mitigating your chances of being spotted applies just as well to any tank. So again, a TD has no advantage over a tank in that matter. They are more vulnerable to artillery, and showing how ALL tanks can be less vulnerable doesn't address their relative vulnerability.

2) Pro tip for staying hidden I learned from a fellow CWer:

If you want to stay hidden behind a bush while sniping...
'
A) Get behind the bush. Zoom into sniper mode. Back away from the bush until the bush is no longer transparent. That is the range at which the bush blocks LOS to you, as opposed to just adding to your camo. Of course, it is also the range at which the bush blocks your own LOS.

Inch forward until the bush becomes transparent again. At this point, the bush adds to your camo rating, but if you fire, the bush effect will immediately disappear. Any bush within range becomes a not bush the moment you fire.

But you haven't fired yet, so the bush still counts as cover/camo for you, just not a LOS block. That is fine though, since it is cover you are looking for.

Now, find your target and fire. *Immediately* back up a couple feet. Now the bush is no longer adding to your camo since you are too far away...but it wasn't anyway since you just fired. But now it IS blocking LOS in both directions. Wait a few seconds, move back into place where the bush just becomes transparent in sniper mode.

This is how people fire at you without being detected even after firing.

[DGuller]

OK, two things in response here:

1) What you say is true, but applies just as well to non-TDs - so back to my first point - why a TD instead of a heavy? The better accuracy is marginally important (to the extent that it even exists) and everything you are saying about mitigating your chances of being spotted applies just as well to any tank. So again, a TD has no advantage over a tank in that matter. They are more vulnerable to artillery, and showing how ALL tanks can be less vulnerable doesn't address their relative vulnerability.

Better camo, and possibly faster and more accurate version of the gun (not sure how true it is generally, but there is a huge difference between IS and SU versions of 122 mm gun).  I don't know what the camo number is on the T95, but I assume it's really low given how flat to the ground it is, which makes it more likely to remain hidden after firing.  Hiding behind the bush doesn't make you completely invisible, it just modifies the view range of the enemies trying to spot you.  With a better camo rating, it's modified more.

2) Pro tip for staying hidden I learned from a fellow CWer:

If you want to stay hidden behind a bush while sniping...
'
A) Get behind the bush. Zoom into sniper mode. Back away from the bush until the bush is no longer transparent. That is the range at which the bush blocks LOS to you, as opposed to just adding to your camo. Of course, it is also the range at which the bush blocks your own LOS.

Inch forward until the bush becomes transparent again. At this point, the bush adds to your camo rating, but if you fire, the bush effect will immediately disappear. Any bush within range becomes a not bush the moment you fire.

But you haven't fired yet, so the bush still counts as cover/camo for you, just not a LOS block. That is fine though, since it is cover you are looking for.

Now, find your target and fire. *Immediately* back up a couple feet. Now the bush is no longer adding to your camo since you are too far away...but it wasn't anyway since you just fired. But now it IS blocking LOS in both directions. Wait a few seconds, move back into place where the bush just becomes transparent in sniper mode.

This is how people fire at you without being detected even after firing.

How does this work?  Is there some wierd delay in the recognition of your position after the muzzle flash?  It seem like you should stay lit up for a while after you fire even if you instantly teleport behind a brick wall.  In any case, this tip is telling you how to spot, shoot, and remain hidden.  If you just want to shoot and remain hidden, such as when you're bring up the rear of the formation (safe bet in T95), you can just stay in that one place where the bush is non-transparent, and stay hidden as well.

[Tamas]

lol not everyone can shoot as Berkut apparently, I just royally pissed off an Object 704 driver after he seriously lost a sniping contest with me (him down to 7%, finished off by a teammate, me: no hits). He accused me of using gold ammo.
As if.

edit: I, of course, was in my JT