The Third Wave

[derspiess]

I had heard about other experiments, but not this one.  Kinda hard for me to believe kids would take their teacher this seriously.  I could see a hand-selected group of impressionable students being fooled into playing along, but I otherwise I would have to think that a certain portion of the class would see through the BS & derail the whole thing.

Assuming the Third Wave experiment actually worked, I have a feeling this dude is overdramatizing the whole thing.

[The Brain]

Saw the movie once. Not in fucking school though, that's just weird.

[Razgovory]

I was more familiar with the other experiment they mention, the Stanford Prison one. Here's the wiki entry for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

That one I studied in school along with the Milgram one.

[Alcibiades]

Comes up in my classes every so often.

[grumbler]

I had heard about other experiments, but not this one.  Kinda hard for me to believe kids would take their teacher this seriously.  I could see a hand-selected group of impressionable students being fooled into playing along, but I otherwise I would have to think that a certain portion of the class would see through the BS & derail the whole thing.

Yes.  That is the impression the teacher and students themselves had before they actually ran the experiment.  Your attitude is the attitude most western countries had of Hitler's antisemitism, too:  "I could see a hand-selected group of impressionable Germans being fooled into playing along, but I otherwise I would have to think that a certain portion of the German natuion would see through the BS & derail the whole thing."

The point is that people don't see through and don't derail.  Your expectations would have been as false in this incident as the expectations of Hitlers' contemporaries were.

Assuming the Third Wave experiment actually worked, I have a feeling this dude is overdramatizing the whole thing.

Which dude?  The student dude (and which of the student dudes), the teacher, or the author of the article (who isn't a dude at all)?

I find the refusal of people to accept the evidence in this case as interesting as the case study itself. "I don't want to believe it so I simply won't" sounds as amusing coming in regard to this case as in the case of Obama's birth certificate or Kerry's Silver Star.

[Razgovory]

I think Derspeiss is arguing that due to the ad hoc nature of the experiment the results repeated in the article decades later are somewhat suspect.

[dps]

It seems to me that part of the key to this was that the students liked and respected the teacher, and were used to following rules at school.  When I was in grade school, we followed the rules, too.  But  by the time I was in high school, well, not so much.

[Monoriu]

I had heard about other experiments, but not this one.  Kinda hard for me to believe kids would take their teacher this seriously.  I could see a hand-selected group of impressionable students being fooled into playing along, but I otherwise I would have to think that a certain portion of the class would see through the BS & derail the whole thing.

Assuming the Third Wave experiment actually worked, I have a feeling this dude is overdramatizing the whole thing.

I can see myself refusing to join such a group, or wanting to opt out.  But I can't imagine derailing this.  The most I will do is "I don't want to have anything to do with it.  I see nothing."

[Admiral Yi]

So kids will rat out their buddies for grades.   That's still a couple steps away from sending them to the ovens.

[Siege]

So kids will rat out their buddies for grades.   That's still a couple steps away from sending them to the ovens.

But the mindset is there.
Don't forget that the nazi leadership were children once.

[grumbler]

I think Derspeiss is arguing that due to the ad hoc nature of the experiment the results repeated in the article decades later are somewhat suspect.

All anecdotes are suspect, for sure.  I am asure that everything didn't go down as simply and smoothly as reported, but I see no reason to doubt that the memories of the participants and teacher are essentially correct.  Inventing anecdotes (like you see a lot on Languish) wouldn't seem to serve anyone's interests. 

[derspiess]

It seems to me that part of the key to this was that the students liked and respected the teacher, and were used to following rules at school. 

Hmm, from that angle, I think maybe I can buy it.

When I was in grade school, we followed the rules, too.  But  by the time I was in high school, well, not so much.

Ditto.  I can think of one teacher in my high school who was liked & trusted enough by a few students to possibly pull this off.  He was the type that could sell just about any idea, but again only to certain students.  And if he were able to handpick his class, he could've pulled it off.  Otherwise, any one of his classes would have had dissenters.

Maybe it's a WV thing

[The Brain]

students liked and respected the teacher,

lol

[grumbler]

Ditto.  I can think of one teacher in my high school who was liked & trusted enough by a few students to possibly pull this off.  He was the type that could sell just about any idea, but again only to certain students.  And if he were able to handpick his class, he could've pulled it off.  Otherwise, any one of his classes would have had dissenters.

Maybe it's a WV thing

I think that you have to keep in mind that (1) this was in 1967, when students were still expected to follow rules and authority figures still automatically received respect; (2) the changes were made incrementally; and (3) the teacher had a mechanism for dealing with "dissenters" that the dissenters didn't mind.  So, dissenters weren't a big issue, since they were "exiled" to the library.

And also remember that these are sophomores.  Not many sophomores have the self-confidence to go up against a teacher.

[Caliga]

With one or two exceptions, I viewed my teachers as irrelevant pissants when I was in high school.